No focus peaking???

[AlanG]

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So how many of them do you use on a regular basis on your Nex 6?

 

First curtain shutter - always on to minimize vibration. (Can't think of why to turn it off.)

Sweep panorama - I love this.

IS

Level (I'm an architectural shooter and that is the main reason I use a 5DIII over the 5DII)

Magnified focus off center

Exposure lock.

55-210 lens

Rokinon 8mm fisheye

Tilting LCD - for low or high angles of course

AE lock button

Focus peaking

PDAF - why would I turn this off?

AF illuminator - use is transparent to operator

 

Smaller and lighter - Even the Nex7 with 18-55 was too big. The 16-50 is smaller and sold me.

 

10 fps - fast shutter reset is good for handheld HDR and other multi-shot effects of still objects, not just for action or expression.

 

 

I've tested the other features in order to be familiar as to see how they'd help me possibly. The smile shutter seemed like a gimmick but after one person on this forum explained how he used it, I will give it a go at the appropriate time.

[wildlightphoto]

Oh foolish me.

 

No comment.

 

Obviously it is better to have to add an EVF rather than have one built in. More AF lens choices at the moment... bad idea too. That just makes the camera too damn versatile. You can't see how a single one of these things could ever be useful to you someday?

 

Does the built-in EVF tilt, and is is upgradeable?

I have no use for AF of any kind.

Not one of the other features you mentioned is interesting to me.

 

'Might be useful some day' sells a lot of cameras to people who don't know what direction they want to go. Other are more focussed and know what they want and don't want in their tools.

 

You clearly are more interested in a jack-of-all-trades camera. I don't have a problem with that. Neither do I have a problem with those who prefer a more focussed approach. To each his own.

Edited May 8, 2014 by wildlightphoto

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[Jeff S]

I'll stop when I get a new girlfriend.

 

Not surprising….what features are you looking for?

 

Jeff

[AlanG]

No comment.

Does the built-in EVF tilt, and is is upgradeable?

 

That is an essential feature I suppose? I do like that and had it in another camera. Some other cameras and some Sony's have this too. If I had to choose one I'd go for the tilting LCD for overhead shots. But if I worked low a lot or macro, maybe the tilting EVF.

 

I don't think Leica has had much of track record with upgrading EVFs. I think they have about 4-5 different models and only a few cameras use the same one. Now they make sure you can't put an Olympus one on this camera. For the price of the EVF you can buy a Nex 6 with lens and have a nice dinner with the savings. Can't see right now why I'd need to upgrade the EVF.

 

I just bought a new car with non essential features such as adaptive cruise control, 4x4, air suspension, navigation, Sirius XM, accident avoidance, etc. Funny how they charge extra for that stuff. How many are driving stripped down basic cars?

 

 

OSS and electronic first curtain shutter - according to my handheld tests. Since it is a visual medium, it is easy to see if it works. Try it yourself.

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Edited May 8, 2014 by AlanG

[thighslapper]

I'm getting a headache.

 

I'm not poking my head back into this bit of the forum until I have one and have used it for a bit.

 

If it's rubbish it will go on ebay.

 

Unlike some, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is.... and am prepared to be proved wrong and suffer the financial consequences.

Edited May 8, 2014 by thighslapper

[AlanG]

Not surprising….what features are you looking for?

 

Jeff

 

You really don't want to go there.

[jonoslack]

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OSS and electronic first curtain shutter - according to my handheld tests. Since it is a visual medium, it is easy to see if it works. Try it yourself.

 

Hi Alan

Sony have to have it because they have such catastrophic shutters (the NEX is bad, the A7 is worse - like stamping on a tin can - twice in the case of the A7r).

 

But that's the difficulty - all the things your relate are ticks (or lack of ticks), but to me, what makes a camera good to use is the usability, and that doesn't really have any ticks relating to it - even a lovely quiet shutter is a relative thing rather than a specific thing. Not to say that the T is perfect by the way, but that ticking boxes doesn't make a good camera.

[jonoslack]

I do not accept this assumption. There must be a reason these features have evolved and been incorporated into cameras and you can't simply dismiss them and say people really don't need them. Have you spoken with every photographer in the world to confirm this? Do you remember how the former Soviet camera industry kept putting out designs from the 30s and 40s with few changes?

 

Oh Alan - I know why features evolve - I write software for a living and I test cameras. They evolve because someone thinks they might be a good idea and someone else thinks of a way of doing it . . . . . and the ones that are good become developed and useful, and the one's that aren't just sit around cluttering things up, because nobody dares to get rid of them (well, somebody might be using them!).

 

One of the great things about Leica - not just the T by the way - is how resistant they are to adding stuff unless they're really sure that it's useful - I've had lots of discussions about things which seemed like a good idea at the time . . . but which weren't included because it wasn't obvious that they were necessary.

 

And no - of course I haven't talked to every photographer in the world, However - I do get hundreds of emails from people saying 'Can you get Leica to include feature X'. Generally speaking these requests are all different, and all of them seem like a good idea at the time.

 

All the best

[pico]

Originally Posted by AlanG Have you spoken with every photographer in the world to confirm this?

 

Not yet, but I will just as soon as I get to the end of the Internet.

.

[jonoslack]

BTW, it was not all that long ago that you and I debated the merits of focus peaking on the NEX cameras … with you vigorously evangelizing for it! : -) Now we've swapped positions on the subject … not that I think it is THE answer, but iI have learned it is a good option to have in many situations.

 

- Marc

 

Hi Marc

I was indeed a huge advocate of focus peaking, I was very vocal that Leica should include it with the M240. But time has modified my opinion, largely because I don't use it, preferring to focus full frame: I find I get better results, even with fast lenses. Like most of these things it's practice (I no longer have perfect eyes either, even with contacts, but I still find it easier to focus full frame).

[jaapv]

Still, I'm glad you did, as it works very well with long teles, which would be hard to focus on this limited EVF

[AlanG]

Hi Alan

Sony have to have it because they have such catastrophic shutters (the NEX is bad, the A7 is worse - like stamping on a tin can - twice in the case of the A7r).

 

Electronic first curtain is vibration free before exposure. OSS compensates for some camera shake. Both are transparent in use. Why anyone would be against these is truly puzzling. Just look at my test sample. If the T included these items, I bet not a single person would complain. There are numerous brands in addition to Sony that have these features and more.

 

To reverse the argument about feature creep...show me where photographers are demanding the removal of these items that I enumerated.

 

Most of the defense for the T's lack of features just sounds to me like Leica enthusiasts defending the brand. There has been no evidence presented to show why leaving out IS, electronic first curtain, sensor cleaning, built in EVF, tilting LCD, etc. makes for a better camera or improves the image in some way. Nor has anyone shown how leaving them off simplifies the use of the camera. Is it so complicated for there to be an HDMI port or a remote release socket that people will be scratching their heads over them? The camera can shoot video but can't connect to a tv for play back. Won't some buyers be scratching their heads over that?

 

Likewise the T already has a touchscreen. Are you telling me that it would add too much complexity for users to be able to touch a spot on it to set the location of magnified live view? But it is ok to touch it that same way to set the AF location?

 

One consistency seems to be that logical arguments are returned with little defense beyond "people don't really need that."

Edited May 9, 2014 by AlanG

[colonel]

Hi Alan

Sony have to have it because they have such catastrophic shutters (the NEX is bad, the A7 is worse - like stamping on a tin can - twice in the case of the A7r).

 

As I have said before, it doesn't enhance arguments when defending one camera's approach, to attack another

 

The word catastrophic does not apply here in any sense.

 

The Sony shutters are excellent. They are extremely reliable and smooth. Nex shutters have become progressively quieter and anyway, including A7, are quieter then most DSLR shutters. The issue with the A7R is that its unusually drawn out, rather then loud. The A7 however is excellent, with room for improvement and is one of the cameras very few areas for improvement. The RX1 is perfect of course, and we wish this ends up in all Sony cameras.

 

I am a bit concerned here in the blanket defending of every aspect of the T. Its a great camera but its hardly perfect and/or better in all respects then every other CSC on the market. Its perfectly respectable to have a discussion about individual features without dismissing them.

 

Focus peaking is a widely used and respected feature and its deficiency can be addressed by Leica in future firmware upgrades. There ... I said it now .....

 

BTW I am still buying a T, and keeping my A7 ...shock horror! ...

[jonoslack]

Electronic first curtain is vibration free before exposure. OSS compensates for some camera shake. Both are transparent in use. Why anyone would be against these is truly puzzling. Just look at my test sample. If the T included these items, I bet not a single person would complain.

?

 

EFC is a no-brainer Alan OSS in lenses is (in my opinion) the wrong answer. IBIS on the Olympus bodies is much more effective and of course it works with all lenses

 

To reverse the argument about feature creep...show me where photographers are demanding the removal of these items that I enumerated.

 

Most of the defense for the T's lack of features just sounds to me like Leica enthusiasts defending the brand. There has been no evidence presented to show why leaving out IS, electronic first curtain, sensor cleaning, built in EVF, tilting LCD, etc. makes for a better camera or improves the image in some way. Nor has anyone shown how leaving them off simplifies the use of the camera. Is it so complicated for there to be an HDMI port or a remote release socket that people will be scratching their heads over them?

 

I hear lots of people asking for a simpler experience.

 

Look. I regret the lack of EFC (but because the shutter is so quiet I can still hand hold at lower speeds than a NEX or an A7 which does have it), I also wish that the camera had IBIS. I wish much more thoroughly that it was weathersealed (why isn't the NEX?). I don't wish it had a tilting LCD or a built in EVF and I don't care much about sensor cleaning (because in 6 months and thousands of images I've only had to use a blower brush, same as on the A7). I do realise that one person's vital feature is just unnecessary to another person; this means that you have to include everything........ or you have to make a strategic decision to keep it simple.

 

BUT the real point is that, with it's quiet shutter, touch screen focusing (why hasn't the A7 got this?) and simple and configurable interface I would prefer to shoot with the T than with a NEX or an A7. Strangely, despite all those missing features of which you speak, I can't think of one picture which would have come out better if taken with the NEX, or one photo I would have missed.

 

Actually, I can tell you one other feature I would really like to see, and that is the touch screen shutter release. My Olympus E-M1 has this and it's marvellous for unobtrusive shooting in street cafés and restaurants.

 

So - favorite missing options:

 

Proper weather sealing

(I did a 9 hour walk with my EM1 over my shoulder in continuos rain recently)

 

In Body Image Stabilisation -

(so that it works with all those lovely OM M and R lenses)

 

Touch screen shutter

(Just fantastic outside in the street)

 

But the funny thing is........ I don't think your NEX has these either

[AlanG]

I don't think the T's shutter will result in less vibration than the electronic first curtain shutter in the Nex as that has no vibration until it is closing. And IS works well even on cameras that have totally electronic shutters and when shooting video.

 

I only single out the Nex 6 as an example because the price is so low and I am familiar with it. There are other cameras out there that are weather sealed, have IBIS and the other features you would like.

 

So it seems in your case that a lack of some features puts you off the Sony. Thus you are not philosophically oposed to the idea that addional features on the T would be a good idea. Finally!

Edited May 9, 2014 by AlanG

[jonoslack]

As I have said before, it doesn't enhance arguments when defending one camera's approach, to attack another

Harold I quite agree, and I apologise for my part

The word catastrophic does not apply here in any sense.

 

The Sony shutters are excellent. They are extremely reliable and smooth. Nex shutters have become progressively quieter and anyway, including A7, are quieter then most DSLR shutters. The issue with the A7R is that its unusually drawn out, rather then loud. The A7 however is excellent, with room for improvement and is one of the cameras very few areas for improvement.

I'll stick to my guns here (with the exception of the NEX 6, which I don't know. In my books a shutter which requires you to use a shutter speed twice the focal length to ensure a sharp photo (not my words, but I agree) counts as catastrophic.

 

If you're coming from an SLR with a big mirror, then granted they won't seem as bad, but if you compare them with a Leica M, a Leica T, or any of the Olympus camera, they're really noisy

 

I think there is plenty of room for improvement In the A7, which is why mine is currently on eBay. I'm keeping the 24-70 and the excellent 55 f1.8 because I'm hoping there will be an A9 to use them on by the end of the year. My A7r went ages ago, but I did borrow one again recently to check the decision with the lenses (and it didn't change)

 

The RX1 is perfect of course, and we wish this ends up in all Sony cameras.

 

I am a bit concerned here in the blanket defending of every aspect of the T. Its a great camera but its hardly perfect and/or better in all respects then every other CSC on the market. Its perfectly respectable to have a discussion about individual features without dismissing them.

I don't know the RX1, but from reputation I might have got one if it had had a 50 mm lens.

 

Look, I'm no kind of a Sony hater, quite the reverse, I've had many Sony cameras in the past, and expect to have more in the future, It was AlanG who shook the NEX in the face of those who seemed enthusiastic about the T after all!

 

It's just that in their recent rush of cameras I feel that the NEX cameras aren't as good as micro 43, either with respect to features, or more specially with respect to choice of lenses.

 

It's also true that the feature I think is missing most from the T (IBIS) Sony seem to have abandoned as well.

 

Focus peaking is a widely used and respected feature and its deficiency can be addressed by Leica in future firmware upgrades. There ... I said it now .....

 

BTW I am still buying a T, and keeping my A7 ...shock horror! ...

 

I don't think you should expect to see focus peaking added later.......

 

BTW I haven't decided whether I'm buying a T yet, but I'm certainly keeping my EM1

[jonoslack]

 

So it seems in your case that a lack of some features puts you off the Sony. Thus you are not philosophically oposed to the idea that addional features on the T would be a good idea. Finally!

 

I don't think I've ever denied that some extra features would be good. I've simply contended that the lack of them is no kind of a deal breaker.

 

It would be more accurate to say that I chose m43 over the NEX: IBIS and weathersealing played a part in the decision, but the better native lenses was more relevant to the decision (the peerless 12-40 Zuiko and the wonderful 75f1.8 spring to mind).

[colonel]

Harold I quite agree, and I apologise for my part

 

I'll stick to my guns here (with the exception of the NEX 6, which I don't know. In my books a shutter which requires you to use a shutter speed twice the focal length to ensure a sharp photo (not my words, but I agree) counts as catastrophic.

 

I think there is plenty of room for improvement In the A7, which is why mine is currently on eBay. I'm keeping the 24-70 and the excellent 55 f1.8 because I'm hoping there will be an A9 to use them on by the end of the year.

 

It's just that in their recent rush of cameras I feel that the NEX cameras aren't as good as micro 43, either with respect to features, or more specially with respect to choice of lenses.

 

BTW I haven't decided whether I'm buying a T yet, but I'm certainly keeping my EM1

 

Thanks.

 

Neither the Nex-6 or the A7 require twice the shutter speed. I think you are referring to the controversy over the A7R at 1/125 or perhaps the sensitivity of 36mp to stability. As I have not used the A7R I would not comment. I have used the D800E and, as with most DSLRs, always need a higher shutter speed then any CSC.

I can get pretty low with the A7, 1/60 usually sharp, 1/40 alot of the time.

The best slow shutter cameras I have used are the X-Vario and RX1 where I have got away with 1/20.

 

Not a fan of M4/3s at all, particularly IQ. Leave it at that.... The Nex series IQ and design objectives are my cup of tea

Edited May 9, 2014 by colonel

[AlanG]

I don't think I've ever denied that some extra features would be good. I've simply contended that the lack of them is no kind of a deal breaker.

 

It would be more accurate to say that I chose m43 over the NEX: IBIS and weathersealing played a part in the decision, but the better native lenses was more relevant to the decision (the peerless 12-40 Zuiko and the wonderful 75f1.8 spring to mind).

 

Why would I have a problem with that? I said a few times that my primary reason for buying a Nex 6 was the compact 16-50 collapsible lens. There are many options and even more since I bought it 17 months ago. If I were buying today, the $524 price would be a big inducement to overlook lack of IBIS and weather sealing. I have been able to keep it under a coat in light rain and have two OSS lenses. I have adapters to use my old MF lenses on it but seldom do. Thus while IBIS may be the preferred way to go, I am ok without it. I bought the Sony 3 year extended warranty for it that includes drops and spills. So if it fails due to lack of weather sealing, they'll fix or replace it. (I originally expected to fly it in a quadcopter but now will probably buy a cheap and lighter Nex 3N body for that.)

 

Aside. Since I posted an acceptably sharp photo (sharp enough for me) at 100% made at the 50mm setting at 1/5th second, how do you come up with the view that the Nex 6 needs a shutter speed twice the focal length? I have shot as low as 1/2 second handheld and gotten nice results. I haven't used the A7r but surely examination of a 36MP image at 100% would turn up anything less than the best technique. In any case if one chooses the A7r over the T there would be very different reasons for that at play.

Edited May 9, 2014 by AlanG

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[jonoslack]

Not a fan of M4/3s at all, particularly IQ. Leave it at that.... The Nex series IQ and design objectives are my cup of tea

 

Well Harold - if I'm looking for IQ then I'll use my M, but If I'm looking for something with a good design to go hiking in English weather - then the E-M1 or E-M5 are the cameras, and although the image quality of m43 was a little questionable a few years ago, these produce excellent quality images - certainly so close to the NEX as to make no practical difference.

 

Each to his own. . . . . But I really have spent a lot of time comparing these cameras - a LOT of time!

 

Why would I have a problem with that? I said a few times that my primary reason for buying a Nex 6 was the compact 16-50 collapsible lens. There are many options and even more since I bought it 17 months ago. If I were buying today, the $524 price would be a big inducement to overlook lack of IBIS and weather sealing. I have been able to keep it under a coat in light rain and have two OSS lenses. I have adapters to use my old MF lenses on it but seldom do. Thus while IBIS may be the preferred way to go, I am ok without it. I bought the Sony 3 year extended warranty for it that includes drops and spills. So if it fails due to lack of weather sealing, they'll fix or replace it. (I originally expected to fly it in a quadcopter but now will probably buy a cheap and lighter Nex 3N body for that.)

 

So - it's each to his own - so what's the necessity to slag off the Leica T with such consistent energy? So it's missing some things your NEX has . . . which is missing some things the Olympus has . . . . which is missing some things the T has.

 

pick your limitations and thus your camera . . . . but it's not ludicrous for someone else to come to a different conclusion . . . Is it?