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rramesh

Full Frame T?

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But, I also want a convenient camera that can take my M lenses, and has a very good native mid-range auto focus stabilised, preferably reasonably fast zoom. That's what my A7 does, but the T doesn't do for me.

 

HI John

but the T wasn't designed for this (to be a convenient AF camera to take your M mount lenses). It was designed to be a small and sexy new system for people to aspire to.

 

What you want is something different (and Edward as well). Fine - maybe Leica will make your camera next time?

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OH Edward - you surely aren't saying that narrow DOF, decent high ISO performance and better tonal graduation is the exclusive preserve of a full frame sensor?

 

I'm sure you already know the answer Jono, but I'll play. Narrow DOF and tonal gradations are directly related to the sensor size. The larger the better, so 35mm is better than APS-C but it is not the best. MF is even better, not to mention LF. As for high iso noise performance, technology being equal, the larger sensor is always better. The problem with most MFDB is that they're not as technologically advanced as the smaller sensors, so 35mm normally has the best performance.

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There is no way that those T lenses cover full frame. Show me any other 23 mm f2 lens or 18-56 that small that can cover full frame.

 

[snip].

 

Check out the Voigtländer Ultron 40/2.0 SL-II ...

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I understand that the T mount may be able to support a full-frame sensor. Would it be conceivable for Leica to introduce a full-frame T down the road?

 

This would be perfect for enthusiasts who crave a full-frame Leica without a rangefinder.

I really hope a M T-like with build-in EVF

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I'm sure you already know the answer Jono, but I'll play. Narrow DOF and tonal gradations are directly related to the sensor size. The larger the better, so 35mm is better than APS-C but it is not the best. MF is even better, not to mention LF. As for high iso noise performance, technology being equal, the larger sensor is always better. The problem with most MFDB is that they're not as technologically advanced as the smaller sensors, so 35mm normally has the best performance.

 

Tonal gradations are related to the sensor quality, and narrow depth of field relates to the aperture of the lens and the real focal length. Neither are related directly to the sensor size.

 

But it seems to me it's like you have two SatNav systems - one is accurate to 1 inch and the other to 5 inches - so the first one is obviously 5 times better than the second one. . . .only in this case you have one sensor which is half as long again as the other sensor. . . . .

 

I don't think we're working on the edge of acceptability here. The limiting factors for most people who are going to print less than 30" are really not a problem.

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HI John

 

but the T wasn't designed for this (to be a convenient AF camera to take your M mount lenses). It was designed to be a small and sexy new system for people to aspire to.

 

 

 

What you want is something different (and Edward as well). Fine - maybe Leica will make your camera next time?

 

 

That is exactly my point, Jono.

 

I'm not even remotely bagging the new T - I'm still (kind of) interested in it. My point was to address or challenge (if you prefer) what I see as spurious justifications for Leica not producing a full frame version.

 

The T does take M lenses (with an adapter), so it does come a short way to what I want. But then I suspect I would be repeating my experience with my NEX-5n, only in a sexier and probably better package.

 

This thread is about a Full Frame T. Leica has made the mount wide enough to take M and R lenses and a full frame sensor. Now, I appreciate it is opening Pandora's box to develop a full frame version (with a built in EVF and in camera stabilization) - people will also want AF full frame lenses (as I recall, this is exactly what Nikon does). Sure, the camera and lenses will be bigger, but if size is an issue, buy the APS-C version and celebrate the size saving (it still won't fit in your pocket).

 

What the experts seem to be saying is that this camera would be too successful and might impact M sales (it won't affect M sales if it doesn't sell). I'm not sure why selling more cameras would be a bad strategy, and is Leica Camera's entire future limited by the M camera market share? A full frame T could actually be an excellent camera and have wider appeal than the M(240). And maybe this is the problem. Leica is committed to the M(240) concept - optical rangefinder with live view and a clip on EVF and bolt on grip. To me it's a confused compromise - limited by manual focus lenses and not really sure what it is. The M is naturally limited by the 16 - 135 mm focal length range (actually, for practical purposes, it's at its best 21-90 mm). The M(240) opens up longer telephotos, macro and zooms, but Leica seems to be hesitating taking advantage of that. I get it they don't want to expand the M lens range, but this seems to have put them in a hole.

 

If the T is a success, then maybe we might see a full frame version taking up those options. If the M camera then retained its purist form (an updated M9 type camera) I'd be happy.

 

What worries me a bit is that this new camera doesn't seem to be aimed at those people actually interested in photography as something more than a fashion accessory. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.

 

A number of posters have observed that this camera is not aimed at existing Leica customers, but at new customers who don't yet know that this camera is for them. That may be true, but I rather hope not. In my business, I was taught to play to my strengths. Building market share is important, but carrying existing customers is also critical. Leica's customers are actually interested in taking photos with Leica products - they're easier pickings than new customers.

 

Cheers

John

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Oh if only the new Leica T was priced the same but had the rangefinder of the M, the 50mp CMOS sensor of the Pentax 645Z, the build quality of the S2, the bokeh of the Contax 645, the autofocus speed of the Olympus Em-1, the size of the X1, and the grain of TriX - we would have nothing to complain about. Oh wait, that's boring too.

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Tonal gradations are related to the sensor quality, and narrow depth of field relates to the aperture of the lens and the real focal length. Neither are related directly to the sensor size.

 

But it seems to me it's like you have two SatNav systems - one is accurate to 1 inch and the other to 5 inches - so the first one is obviously 5 times better than the second one. . . .only in this case you have one sensor which is half as long again as the other sensor. . . . .

 

I don't think we're working on the edge of acceptability here. The limiting factors for most people who are going to print less than 30" are really not a problem.

 

Jono, I think we have already established that the T is a wonderful camera and its target clientele will be very happy with the advantages of the APS-C sensor. So let's stop defending the T blindly and ferociously for a while.

 

I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by twisting the facts about tonal gradations and DOF control. After all, Leica does make 35mm and medium format cameras too

I'm not going to comment any further on this subject as it seems to me any rationality has been lost.

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Jono, I think we have already established that the T is a wonderful camera and its target clientele will be very happy with the advantages of the APS-C sensor. So let's stop defending the T blindly and ferociously for a while.

 

I don't think you're doing yourself any favors by twisting the facts about tonal gradations and DOF control. After all, Leica does make 35mm and medium format cameras too

I'm not going to comment any further on this subject as it seems to me any rationality has been lost.

 

I'm not twisting facts Edward - I'm trying to disagree with the implication that the T will produce noticeably inferior results, but I agree it's going round in circles, and I'm going to stop now too!

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