T Lens Manufacturer

[Rick]

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Hey James - If, you want to keep repeating the same Leica bashing stuff in every thread you visit, why are you here? This forum is not for repeated bashing of Leica products. If, you don't want to follow the forum rules why not take your sour, unfounded comments somewhere else. Your incessant trolling gets pretty old.

Edited May 10, 2014 by RickLeica

[jaapv]

Just to make things clear, this is part of the forum rules and can be found in the mission statement:

What the forum is not for

 

This isn’t the place for those who think that Leica, Leica products and Leica customers are inadequate, deceitful or stupid.

 

Some members, apparently, use the forum exclusively to express the same criticisms again and again, spoiling for others the enjoyment of their hobby.

 

This isn’t a forum for sycophants and fanboys but neither is it a Leica-bashing community. No-one in the Leica forum should ever have to justify their purchase of a Leica product or their enjoyment of it.

Edited May 10, 2014 by jaapv

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Hey James - If, you want to keep repeating the same Leica bashing stuff in every thread you visit, why are you here? This forum is not for repeated bashing of Leica products. If, you don't want to follow the forum rules why not take your sour, unfounded comments somewhere else. Your incessant trolling gets pretty old.

 

Sorry but if people respond to a comment I make with a comment I disagree with, am I not allowed to respond? I hardly bash Leica because I use their stuff - but I'm not a fanboy or some unpaid stealth promotions rep either!

 

What unfounded comments have I made?

[wattsy]

As with most things in life there is a happy medium.

[jaapv]

Indeed, and the word repetitive comes into it as well.

[M9reno]

There is that saying: "when in Rome..."

 

I have no wish to run afoul of this forum's rules, whatever my level of disagreement with some posts here.

 

But it is clear that people like me, who might have more criticism than praise for Leica as a company today, should confine our input to other parts of this forum, migrate to some other site, or just turn off this interweb thing and go take some photographs.

 

Peace to all of you.

 

BTW: I think the forum rules also have something to say about personal attacks and aggressive language.

Edited May 10, 2014 by M9reno

[Rick]

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Sorry but if people respond to a comment I make with a comment I disagree with, am I not allowed to respond? I hardly bash Leica because I use their stuff - but I'm not a fanboy or some unpaid stealth promotions rep either!

 

What unfounded comments have I made?

 

Ok, you asked. I won't get into a tit for tat, but I will give my personal impression of the whole of your posting and Allan's and this includes several others as well. I can only answer for what I observe.

 

Everybody loves another car analogy (groan). Let's say you are invited over to my house. We are all guests here. You come out to my garage and enter into a heated discussion about my brand new Jaguar automobile. You express your opinion about how overpriced, under-featured, these cars are and that the manufacturer has the poor quality control and the my car is unreliable. First time around I learn something and we exchange ideas.

 

Then, you invite yourself over to my house every single fricking day and harp on the same sour views about how unreliable, overpriced, under-featured, and what poor quality control the manufacturer has. Oh, and the manufacturer lies and is a ghost of its former self.

 

Every time you invite yourself over to my house you take the opportunity to insert your self into every guest conversation and you repetetively repeat the same sour comments about my car.

 

One day my friend Bono comes over and confides he has been testing the first production car for the last 6 months and he shares his thoughts. Before he knows it there you and Alan are inserting your sour comments about Jaguar and my new car... and you don't even own it, have never driven it and have never even seen it in the flesh! But, based on the engine you already know it is a poser car for drivers with too much money, too little brains that know nothing about driving. By the way, ever wonder how all of those rich guys got their money? Hint: It wasn't by being stupid. Eventually, Bono gives up and just goes home.

 

Anyway, I do enjoy you guys' wicked sense of humor, just not the repetetive sour comments. If, the shoe were on the other foot, it would be like finding out Jaguar has a fatal flaw in their transmissions and after only a few years Jaguar no longer stock parts and won't repair it. Then, one of our guest posts that this is actually a good thing because, you can now trade your old Jag in and buy a new Jaguar.

 

Cheers

Edited May 10, 2014 by erl
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[theboch]

Rick, thank you so much. You absolutely nailed what I tried to express in another thread but miserably failed to

[jaapv]

OK guys, all opinions have been given on this particular aspect. I won’t moderate anything above, but from now on keep this on subject and within the forum rules please.

[Lee Martin]

I hope that the Leica T transpires to deliver to the level that is being suggested by supporters here, and justifies it's huge price differential over what is quite clearly a broad and diverse amount of competition from other manufacturers. As has been said it's a bold brave move by them and should people want to buy it then I hope that they enjoy it and it delivers to the level that is promised and expected. That said if it only delivers to a standard the equal of other products I don't think style alone will be sufficient. God help them if it's not reliable given the build up its had on this forum.

 

If Leica are so confident in the specification and standards of production that they have instructed the lens manufacturer to carry out in Japan , I think they should disclose who it is and people can make their own minds up. Trying to keep it a secret almost suggests that they fear that it will be detrimental in some way. Are they embarrassed about it ?

[AlanG]

Quite a few Italian branded bicycles and parts are now made in Taiwan. Besides greater efficiencies it could be they have better automated welding gear (more precise than handmade even) and more advanced knowledge with carbon fiber. A similar situation may exist with lens production.

[wildlightphoto]

If Leica are so confident in the specification and standards of production that they have instructed the lens manufacturer to carry out in Japan , I think they should disclose who it is and people can make their own minds up. Trying to keep it a secret almost suggests that they fear that it will be detrimental in some way. Are they embarrassed about it ?

 

It may be they don't want the competition to know who the maker is. This is a common business strategy.

[Dougg]

...If Leica are so confident in the specification and standards of production that they have instructed the lens manufacturer to carry out in Japan , I think they should disclose who it is and people can make their own minds up. Trying to keep it a secret almost suggests that they fear that it will be detrimental in some way. Are they embarrassed about it ?

I would venture a guess that members here, if they knew the lens maker, would rush to assume the engineering and QA are the same for the maker's brand and the Leica brand... That it is simply badge engineering, no more.

 

I think we've gotten used to seeing this exemplified in American cars. But the Japanese makers have managed to distinguish their premium line from the regular.

 

Or perhaps, handled right, revealing the maker would turn out ok. Did Zeiss overcome this perception with Cosina-made lenses, the Zeiss vs Voigtlander lines? I recall hearing some suggestions that the practical difference is nil, only the price and name are different... maybe just cynical sour-grapes talk.

[michaelbrenner]

Sampling. To maintain quality, I believe that Leica will need to regularly and rigorously test samples from production. Bearing mind that Leica is 5600 miles from Japan this may prove to be a logistical challenge.

 

The main concern (I would have) is that the contractor rarely has the dedication and zeal of the originator, and originators who contract out work in which they have a competitive advantage risk diluting that competitive advantage and also risk their own ongoing exuberance.

 

Nevertheless, the principle of economics suggests that by contracting out the work the company can more readily realize economies scale while keeping their own talent on task.

 

So, at the end of the day, while it may be more nostalgic to have a "made in Germany" lens, if we can get a lower cost lens of comparable quality manufactured elsewhere (increases profit which means more funds are available for R&D, Leica's core strength), then we'd be crazy not to give it a go. The US learned this in the auto industry the (very) painful way, and so it's not surprising that Leica, as they grow and expand into new markets and categories, would also head down that more cost efficient path.

 

Whether they will be able to maintain quality and consistency remains to be seen.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Sampling. To maintain quality, I believe that Leica will need to regularly and rigorously test samples from production. Bearing mind that Leica is 5600 miles from Japan this may prove to be a logistical challenge.

 

The main concern (I would have) is that the contractor rarely has the dedication and zeal of the originator, and originators who contract out work in which they have a competitive advantage risk diluting that competitive advantage and also risk their own ongoing exuberance.

 

Nevertheless, the principle of economics suggests that by contracting out the work the company can more readily realize economies scale while keeping their own talent on task.

 

So, at the end of the day, while it may be more nostalgic to have a "made in Germany" lens, if we can get a lower cost lens of comparable quality manufactured elsewhere (increases profit which means more funds are available for R&D, Leica's core strength), then we'd be crazy not to give it a go. The US learned this in the auto industry the (very) painful way, and so it's not surprising that Leica, as they grow and expand into new markets and categories, would also head down that more cost efficient path.

 

Whether they will be able to maintain quality and consistency remains to be seen.

 

Leica has been 'giving it a go' - contracting out production both in Germany, and 'abroad' - for many years. Previous and current contractors/partners include(d): Sigma, Minolta, Angenieux, Minox, Zeiss, Novoflex, Schneider … and of course Panasonic. No camera/lens manufacturer can ignore the fact that China has more optical expertise in design and production than any other country in the world. For every lens produced e.g. in Germany there must be thousands produced in China.

 

dunk

Edited May 11, 2014 by dkpeterborough

[spylaw4]

Quote from T brochure - believe or don't believe - it's up to you "...and Leica engineers based in Japan constantly monitor every stage of the process and are ready to intervene....." etc. etc.

[jonoslack]

Quote from T brochure - believe or don't believe - it's up to you "...and Leica engineers based in Japan constantly monitor every stage of the process and are ready to intervene....." etc. etc.

 

As far as I'm aware there are certainly Leica engineers based in Japan.

[IkarusJohn]

Quote from T brochure - believe or don't believe - it's up to you "...and Leica engineers based in Japan constantly monitor every stage of the process and are ready to intervene....." etc. etc.

 

That's exactly what I would expect.

 

I recently had an experience where large, high value items were being provided by a Norwegian company for a major project. They in turn subcontracted the work to a Chinese company (not an unreasonable thing to do - it involved casting housings). The goods were supplied with full and detailed ISO certifications. On inspection, the castings failed every test - paint finish, accuracy of casting, and metallurgy - and they were rejected.

 

Next time round, the client used a Swedish supplier - same thing; full documentary certification supplied by the Swedish company, but the goods failed every inspection test and were rejected (Chinese foundry).

 

I'm not bashing Chinese manufacture, and nor would I be critical of Japanese manufacture either - it's an issue of price, agreed quality standard and proper supervision. My Distagon is one of the two Zeiss lenses made in Germany, and it actually puts the Noctilux and all other Leica lenses in the shade, It is the best made lens I have ever held - not because the Japanese can't make lenses like that, but because Zeiss made a point of the best manufacturing that could be achieved and did it in Germany (not sure why, but perhaps making the best of the artisanal history and closer supervision).

 

I'm not in the least worried by the fact that Leica is having these lenses made in Japan, provided the supervision is there - if you want a cheaper lens (more plastic, more automation, less "handmade") made to the best standard, Japan is the obvious place to do it.

 

Cheers

John

[mben]

I'm puzzled: why won't Leica say what company in Japan manufactures T lenses?

 

The 18-56's hood has the same form and materials of the Sony - Zeiss 24-70mm f4. Also the focus and zoom rings and inner design look very similar.

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[LeicaS2]

Originally Posted by M9reno View Post

I'm puzzled: why won't Leica say what company in Japan manufactures T lenses?

 

 

 

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I believe the answer is that the company is so obscure that it wouldn't mean anything to us. I have reasons to believe it is a contract manufacturer that does small volume custom assembly work for Canon, Sony Zeiss, and others but has no brand of it's own.

 

I believe they are being used not for labor savings, but capacity constraints in Germany. Even with the new factory, Leica has not yet built the manufacturing capacity for all their lenses in Germany. Back in time, they used Canada for some lenses. Some believe they still do. I have a great deal of experience with global manufacturing and marketing with capital intensive products. Labor costs are much less important than access to capacity. And we used our own QC engineers to be on the line as necessary. Your German car can come more from the USA than some USA Fords.

 

The delays with getting lenses for the M and the S and the Cine are long enough already without having T lenses produced in Germany. Again, it's not as much pure labor costs, it's manufacturing capacity. And the name of the obscure supplier really is not important since it is not being produced on a Panasonic or any other well know brand's assembly line.

 

And I can assure you that if manufacturing capacity is still limited in Germany, they will use it to produce higher priced products before lower priced products. An S or M lens, before a T.

 

This mater is should be closed.