earleygallery Posted April 24, 2014 Share #41 Posted April 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think all of the companies that had legacy lenses came out with adapters for their mirrorless models. And at the PhotoExpo in NYC last fall, Sony handed me an A7r with a Canon 24-70 on it. Presumably the inclusion of 6 bit coding in the M adapter means the new camera does automatic lens correction for those lenses. I think the T is the camera that Leica should have made back in 2008 as this would have been a breakthrough for them and would have been a modern update to the original small Leica concept. But they had to wait until now for the technology to be mature and now there is nothing new they are bringing to the table. Yes they might have excellent lenses for it but you can get good lenses for all kinds of mirrorless cameras. Besides, if you are interested in the best image quality in a small package you would want to go with the A7r today. I know several Canon architectural photographers who have done precisely that... mostly to use their 17 and 24 TSE lenses on a better sensor than the 5DIII has. I have been tempted to do that also. For a small travel camera, the Nex6 does all I need and it is smaller (once the EVF is added to the T) and much less expensive than the T, plus it has more features. The T is mostly for people who just have to have a Leica. If another manufacturer had introduced this exact camera, would many on this forum get excited by it? I agree. For a fraction of the price there are many alternatives - e.g. the Canon EOS-M which can be bought with the 22mm lens, an EOSM to EF adaptor, dedicated flashgun and a free tripod for £499. Leica will sell some T's to M users who want to try it out with the M adaptor (assuming they can actually get some of those out to dealers) and to the 'luxury' market for whom price is not a consideration. Unfortunately I don't see this being a camera that will grow the market for Leica. It's not as absurd as the Hasselblad Lunar though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 24, 2014 Posted April 24, 2014 Hi earleygallery, Take a look here Leica T. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
AlanG Posted April 24, 2014 Share #42 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) Leica will sell some T's to M users who want to try it out with the M adaptor... And why would an A7 or A7r not be a better choice for this? The A7r has 15MP in APS crop mode should you want to use that rather than the full frame. Plus you'd have 24 or 36MP, a built in EVF, tilting LCD, the ability to mount a flash in the hotshoe and still use the EVF... more I'm sure. Edited April 24, 2014 by AlanG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 24, 2014 Share #43 Posted April 24, 2014 And why would an A7 not be a better choice for this? Because it doesn't have a Leica badge? You know the sort, they'll buy any Leica and convince themselves it's way better than anything else. I don't know if the coding on the adaptor will provide in camera correction for coded M lenses - maybe? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berth Posted April 24, 2014 Share #44 Posted April 24, 2014 And why would an A7 or A7r not be a better choice for this? The A7r has 15MP in APS crop mode should you want to use that rather than the full frame. It's not clear to me that the A7 or A7r are better cameras, or better camera systems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 24, 2014 Share #45 Posted April 24, 2014 Because it doesn't have a Leica badge? You know the sort, they'll buy any Leica and convince themselves it's way better than anything else. I don't know if the coding on the adaptor will provide in camera correction for coded M lenses - maybe? I agree about the badge tax. This is a branding exercise and as far as I can see does not offer much in the Leica tradition... however you want to interpret that. The M has analog manual controls and this is touchscreen. It doesn't get much different than that... not that I think a touchscreen would have to be a bad idea if implemented well. But I think more direct mechanical controls are necessary for how I like to work. So assuming there was the name "Panasonic" on this, would it appeal to many Leica users over the numerous other APS mirrorless cameras on the market, let alone the A7? If the price of the camera is "reasonable" I have no problem with Leica making a "me too" camera even via outsourcing some or most of it. IMO, they have to expand their operations in as many ways as they can. I can't see the point of 6 bit coding on the adapter if it does not compensate for the lens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 24, 2014 Share #46 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) It's not clear to me that the A7 or A7r are better cameras, or better camera systems. Why not. Maybe you have to do some research. Do you think a 36MP A7r with a 50mm Summicron on it has the potential to provide more detail than a 16 MP Leica T with 35mm Summicron on it. Would you rather have a built in EVF or a clip on EVF? How can you use an external flash and EVF simultaneously with the T? (Either on the hotshoe or using the hotshoe to sync a flash?) I don't see a vertical grip available for the T. The T only has two AF lenses for it at the moment. How many AF lenses can be attached to the A7 today, either native lenses, or via AF adapters? Why would I want to attach my 17mm or 24mm TSE lens to the APS T camera even should an electronic adapter become available for it? Edited April 24, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted April 24, 2014 Share #47 Posted April 24, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Unfortunately I don't see this being a camera that will grow the market for Leica. I disagree. This camera is meant as the "new" Leica, for someone who does not have "old" glass to put to use- who does not want a rangefinder- but someone who wants a Leica lens and a quality camera with the Leica badge.-- there are many people who this will appeal to-- just not anyone on this board or participating in this thread. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud55 Posted April 24, 2014 Share #48 Posted April 24, 2014 Hi all. As I was in London today I thought I would pop into the Leica shop in the Burlington Arcade to see this new camera. It's very cute and looks better than in the photos. I like the way the touchscreen works and it handles well too. As I have an xvario already and other cameras, at the moment it does not make sense for me to buy this camera but maybe in the future...... I do think leica have made a very innovative camera and I am very impressed. Rosie 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berth Posted April 24, 2014 Share #49 Posted April 24, 2014 Why not. Maybe you have to do some research. Do you think a 36MP A7r with a 50mm Summicron on it has the potential to provide more detail than a 16 MP Leica T with 35mm Summicron on it. Would you rather have a built in EVF or a clip on EVF? How can you use an external flash and EVF simultaneously with the T? (Either on the hotshoe or using the hotshoe to sync a flash?) The T only has two AF lenses for it at the moment. How many AF lenses can be attached to the A7 today, either native lenses, or via AF adapters? Why would I want to attach my 17mm or 24mm TSE lens to the APS T camera even should an electronic adapter become available for it? I haven't tried to operate nor have I seen images from either camera so how could I conclude which one is better than the other? Nikon's just released D4S professional DSLR has a 16.2MP sensor, do you think the SONY A7r is a better camera? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted April 24, 2014 Share #50 Posted April 24, 2014 Hi all. As I was in London today I thought I would pop into the Leica shop in the Burlington Arcade to see this new camera. It's very cute and looks better than in the photos. I like the way the touchscreen works and it handles well too. As I have an xvario already and other cameras, at the moment it does not make sense for me to buy this camera but maybe in the future......I do think leica have made a very innovative camera and I am very impressed. Rosie But not innovative enough for you to want to upgrade the XVario? Sadly for Leica, lots of people saying "that looks cute" isn't good enough. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
prk60091 Posted April 24, 2014 Share #51 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) But not innovative enough for you to want to upgrade the XVario? Sadly for Leica, lots of people saying "that looks cute" isn't good enough. this is *not* an upgrade or replacement camera for current "M" users (film or digital) this is an entry camera for *new* Leica users or replacement for the X users when my X1 "dies" or needs replacement- this may be the path to "upgrade" as opposed to the "M" path. and for many "looks cute" is enough Edited April 24, 2014 by prk60091 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 24, 2014 Share #52 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) I haven't tried to operate nor have I seen images from either camera so how could I conclude which one is better than the other? Nikon's just released D4S professional DSLR has a 16.2MP sensor, do you think the SONY A7r is a better camera? So your point is you don't have the information to form a conclusion? If your needs are high resolution, such as if you plan to shoot architectural photos, then yes the A7r will be a better choice than the D4s. And if you need the best low light performance, go with the A7s. If you need to shoot sports, the best choice would be the 1Dx or one of the fast Nikons, or similar. In what way does this Leica T exceed an A7r? Is there any possibility that a modern 16MP APS sensor can provide more detail than an equally modern 36MP full frame sensor? Does it have better low light performance? Faster AF? Sorry, you already said you have no idea. Have you seen photos from or tried an Instamatic 100 from 1963? Maybe that is a better camera system too. Give me a break, I've explained enough reasons. Maybe study up if you need more information to have an understanding of what is going on. Edited April 24, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynp Posted April 24, 2014 Share #53 Posted April 24, 2014 The T is an impressive camera and looks good (in black). The lugs and strap are very interesting and innovative and I do hope that Audi designers did enough of testings and the lugs will not fall off from the body as it happened with my Audi-designed Leica M9 Titan two years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted April 24, 2014 Share #54 Posted April 24, 2014 In what way does this Leica T exceed an A7r? Is there any possibility that a modern 16MP APS sensor can provide more detail than an equally modern 36MP full frame sensor? Does it have better low light performance? Faster AF? Sorry, you already said you have no idea. I have an idea - having spent lots of time recently with both. The quiet shutter makes the Leica T much easier to hand hold and produces better images at about half the shutter speed. The A7r doesn't play well with any M lenses under 50mm (and isn't that good with some 50s either). The T works really well with all the M and R lenses I've stuck on it (lots), with no compromises to keep in mind. The zoom lens with the T is considerably better than either of the FF lenses for the Sony (especially if you're interested in the corners). My personal opinion is that the colour is better as well. Of course, if your absolute criteria is the difference between a 24" print and a 36" print (pretty much the difference between 16mp and 36mp) and you have a decent tripod, and you don't want to use M lenses - then the A7r is a no brainer. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that on purely technical grounds the T is better than the A7r in all respects, but it is in some respects. From my point of view the fact that the T doesn't sound like two people stamping on tin cans is enough but I realise I might be in the minority. 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 24, 2014 Share #55 Posted April 24, 2014 Why not. Maybe you have to do some research. Do you think a 36MP A7r with a 50mm Summicron on it has the potential to provide more detail than a 16 MP Leica T with 35mm Summicron on it. Would you rather have a built in EVF or a clip on EVF? How can you use an external flash and EVF simultaneously with the T? (Either on the hotshoe or using the hotshoe to sync a flash?) I don't see a vertical grip available for the T. The T only has two AF lenses for it at the moment. How many AF lenses can be attached to the A7 today, either native lenses, or via AF adapters? Why would I want to attach my 17mm or 24mm TSE lens to the APS T camera even should an electronic adapter become available for it? The A7r is a better camera because it fits Alan's habits and wants. Never mind anyone else's habits and wants. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Jones Posted April 24, 2014 Share #56 Posted April 24, 2014 ^^ This is exactly what I'm expecting to find out when I try it. I returned the Sony because it's not very well made by comparison with the M, still didn't fit in my pocket. Noisy shutter and shaky pictures hand held. I'm thinking this will be a great pocket alternative for M lenses, my only concern is the APSc size sensor as my favourite 50 will now be a 75 and I'm not big on that focal length. I hope they can deliver them to customers before we stop wanting them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanG Posted April 24, 2014 Share #57 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) The A7r is a better camera because it fits Alan's habits and wants. Never mind anyone else's habits and wants. I don't have an A7. I did shoot with an A7r and the shutter noise was not the slightest issue to me. I think any objective observer knows that the A7 is way more innovative and generated a lot more excitement around it than this camera will. And Berthe stated, "It's not clear to me that the A7 or A7r are better cameras, or better camera systems." So my reply was about which has more of a system. Granted the A7 has few native lenses but it accepts Nex AF lenses, Alpha AF lenses, Canon AF and TSE lenses, and various third party lenses. But leave the A7 aside and just compare it with all the other APS and M4/3rds cameras on the market then... of course it is a usable camera (provided shooting simultaneously with an EVF and flash is not needed, and you are willing to work within its limitations and the small current system,) as are the rest. Hooray for Leica! Why do you think full frame DSLRs are still so popular among pros? These APS mirrorless cameras are useful but pretty limited. I can't get very excited about yet another one. At least the Sony's are priced low enough that they are worth it to me for the relatively narrow untaxing things I do with one. Let's see if the market feels otherwise and pays for the privilege of ownership. Edited April 24, 2014 by AlanG Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosebud55 Posted April 24, 2014 Share #58 Posted April 24, 2014 But not innovative enough for you to want to upgrade the XVario? Sadly for Leica, lots of people saying "that looks cute" isn't good enough. I am just getting used to the xvario and enjoy using it when I don't wish to take the "full kit" of fuji lenses on holiday. I do not need to upgrade yet as the vario does such a good job for me, as it's a great travel camera. I think the T will be a popular camera for many reasons and I think it's interesting what Jono says about it and his photos look fab :-) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted April 24, 2014 Share #59 Posted April 24, 2014 100 years on and we have a new, small camera, adopting an unfashionably small sensor size, simple to use, near silent, competitive IQ, durable and reliable (we hope), cracking lenses......well, if a few pros would rather stick to DSLRs/field cameras........ 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildlightphoto Posted April 24, 2014 Share #60 Posted April 24, 2014 (edited) I think any objective observer knows that the A7 is way more innovative and generated a lot more excitement around it than this camera will. That means nothing to the person who doesn't get along with the A7-series cameras. And Berthe stated, "It's not clear to me that the A7 or A7r are better cameras, or better camera systems." So my reply was about which has more of a system. Here's another example of where your wants and habits are clouding your objectivity. To the photographer who wants to use M-mount wide-angle lenses or prefers a quiet shutter the A7 ecosystem may not be better. ... of course it is a usable camera (provided shooting simultaneously with an EVF and flash is not needed...) Use the pop-up flash to trigger an off-camera flash. Every camera has limitations, it's up to each of us to decide which limitations we're willing to put up with or work around. A limitaiton for you may be someone else's 'must-have' feature. Why do you think full frame DSLRs are still so popular among pros? Since when has popularity determined usefulness for any particular individual? Edited April 24, 2014 by wildlightphoto 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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