Tonki-M Posted February 19, 2014 Share #21 Posted February 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I don't think anyone should get admiration for the lenses they buy, but the pictures they make with them. Does it really matter which lenses they make them with? what do you expect? Even the company that makes the product is sending mix signals. On one hand, they bring in the big guns in photography world to sponsor that they are all about making images. On the other hand, they spend more of their time playing dress-up on older model rather than spending their effort fixing problems/glitches/bugs on that said older model. Then they make this and that camera with colorful leather, with slight variation then bring it out as 'limited edition'. Now what kind of people buy limited edition products...hardly hardcore photographers who are all about that final images! So which one is the majority which is the minority...alas, it is what it is (and i really think it has less to do with 'absolute performance' but 'absolute bragging rights' or something of that sort). I hope i have not offended anyone but again, it is what it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 19, 2014 Posted February 19, 2014 Hi Tonki-M, Take a look here Why are we obsessed by 'absolute performance'?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Paul J Posted February 19, 2014 Share #22 Posted February 19, 2014 what do you expect? Even the company that makes the product is sending mix signals. On one hand, they bring in the big guns in photography world to sponsor that they are all about making images. On the other hand, they spend more of their time playing dress-up on older model rather than spending their effort fixing problems/glitches/bugs on that said older model. Then they make this and that camera with colorful leather, with slight variation then bring it out as 'limited edition'. Now what kind of people buy limited edition products...hardly hardcore photographers who are all about that final images! So which one is the majority which is the minority...alas, it is what it is (and i really think it has less to do with 'absolute performance' but 'absolute bragging rights' or something of that sort). I hope i have not offended anyone but again, it is what it is. No, no offence at all. No, the company just markets to make money. I personally don't have a problem with that. They do what they need to do. It's up to the buyer to discern wether it's true and wether it means something to them. It's just that all that is actually useless in the grand scheme of things. If you want to use performance lenses use them, if you want to use a piece of coke bottle do that. I just personally don't have an admiration for the ability or decision of buying, but in the decision of using it, for the right reasons, for the pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted February 19, 2014 Share #23 Posted February 19, 2014 I am very comfortable with having more lenses than I need, since they are not losing money, in some ways I would perhaps be better with less choice and more familiarity. I thoroughly enjoy the ownership proposition however. There are numerous lenses and for that matter camera's I'd love (MM and a Summilux 21 or 24 for example) I'm quite sure it would have limited impact on the quality of my pictures, but I'm sure I would enjoy it. I think with a lot of things the strive for perfection is admirable, so long as we accept the reality of absolute performance and make choices accordingly, it works for me. The 50 APO I tried was stunning but not stunning enough for me to spend £5k on it. I've long since given up attempting to falsely justify a purchasing decision and accept that want and need are very different. I'm often however reminded that owning a Leica camera is a privilege, and that for me is a good thing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ansel_Adams Posted February 20, 2014 Share #24 Posted February 20, 2014 I guess I am firmly in the camp that thinks its not how big, shiny, etc. it is, its what you do with it that counts. The internet has brought us a level of consumerism/shopping not seen before. The virtual shop window is all encompassing. Instant reviews, feedback, opinions on anything you care to mention. Which may be good in one sense but bad in the other, as often all you get is endless hand wringing about what to buy. This vs that. New vs old. Film vs digital. Its like the internet converts everything into binary 1s and Os. There is no middle ground. There is no grey area. People get sucked in and lost in the code without stepping back and seeing what its for! It may beat sitting in front of the telly but perhaps a lot of folks just need to get up of their asses and do something with their gear? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted February 20, 2014 Share #25 Posted February 20, 2014 I guess I am firmly in the camp that thinks its not how big, shiny, etc. it is, its what you do with it that counts. The internet has brought us a level of consumerism/shopping not seen before. The virtual shop window is all encompassing. Instant reviews, feedback, opinions on anything you care to mention. Which may be good in one sense but bad in the other, as often all you get is endless hand wringing about what to buy. This vs that. New vs old. Film vs digital. Its like the internet converts everything into binary 1s and Os. There is no middle ground. There is no grey area. People get sucked in and lost in the code without stepping back and seeing what its for! It may beat sitting in front of the telly but perhaps a lot of folks just need to get up of their asses and do something with their gear? I agree that cameras are for using. But using them results in bumps and scratches and, with Leica's prices, perhaps some are reluctant to incur those. That could even break the myth that all Leica lenses are sold for more than they cost to acquire. But although Leicas are tools and humans are tool-using creatures, you'd have to be pretty dense to look at, e.g., the front element of a 0.95/50 and not be impressed with it purely as a thing of beauty, whether you knew what to do with it or not. Even crow can do that. I think you can relate to (in this case cameras) at several levels. It's not my position to tell people which, if any, they choose. Regards, s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 20, 2014 Share #26 Posted February 20, 2014 The other thing of course is that companies need to keep launching 'new improved' versions of whatever to drive sales. They know that there are many who simply must have the latest whether they need it or not. Leica are in a position where they can build something without any regard to price knowing that there are people out there who must have it - look at the APO Summicron. As I said, big boys toys for the most part, in that the customer wants it but doesn't need it or even can tell any difference in actual application. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 20, 2014 Share #27 Posted February 20, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...why are we more obsessed with absolute performance figures when looking at new Leica (or other manufacturer's) lens data rather than appreciating other important aspects of their design such as ergonomics and other 'usability' attributes (filter size consistency and so on)?... It's a middle aged man thing. Sent from another Galaxy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universalb50 Posted February 21, 2014 Share #28 Posted February 21, 2014 Although I know how to use my M9, and I think it's a truly fantastic camera, I'm just not very artistically skilled: not in the genes I guess? I'm amazed at how much you folks talk about these technically state of-the-art gadgets like APO Summicron 50/2.0/Noctilux/various incarnations of the Summilux. It's fascinating to learn about these things; it's very nice that Leica has this website! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 21, 2014 Share #29 Posted February 21, 2014 what do you expect? Even the company that makes the product is sending mix signals. On one hand, they bring in the big guns in photography world to sponsor that they are all about making images. On the other hand, they spend more of their time playing dress-up on older model rather than spending their effort fixing problems/glitches/bugs on that said older model. Then they make this and that camera with colorful leather, with slight variation then bring it out as 'limited edition'. Now what kind of people buy limited edition products...hardly hardcore photographers who are all about that final images! So which one is the majority which is the minority...alas, it is what it is (and i really think it has less to do with 'absolute performance' but 'absolute bragging rights' or something of that sort). I hope i have not offended anyone but again, it is what it is. I’m not sure about absolute bragging rights, the audience is too small. A trophy wife is more effective… Maybe the term “absolute enjoyment” is more appropriate. But then the trophy wife might be an effective counter-argument as well… Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted February 21, 2014 Share #30 Posted February 21, 2014 I’m not sure about absolute bragging rights, the audience is too small. .......( I'm not sure about that, since the real audience is always the same size: the inside of the head of the bragger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 21, 2014 Share #31 Posted February 21, 2014 Anyway, if someone was obsessed about absolute performance they wouldn't be using a Leica M, they'd be using medium or large format. Leica was never about the best performance when you think about it. The original idea was to make a very compact camera with very good performance from precision optics, compared to other options at the time. The 35mm negative was considered miniature, everyone was using roll/sheet film or plates. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted February 21, 2014 Share #32 Posted February 21, 2014 It's a middle aged man thing. but safer and cheaper than an affair or sports car Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
a911s Posted February 21, 2014 Share #33 Posted February 21, 2014 Anyway, if someone was obsessed about absolute performance they wouldn't be using a Leica M, they'd be using medium or large format. Leica was never about the best performance when you think about it. The original idea was to make a very compact camera with very good performance from precision optics, compared to other options at the time. The 35mm negative was considered miniature, everyone was using roll/sheet film or plates. Yeah, "small negative, big picture". Unfortunately the cameras and lenses have become bigger and/or heavier along the way. I much prefer the non-apo 35 and 50 Summilux for this reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 21, 2014 Share #34 Posted February 21, 2014 Anyway, if someone was obsessed about absolute performance they wouldn't be using a Leica M, they'd be using medium or large format. Leica was never about the best performance when you think about it. The original idea was to make a very compact camera with very good performance from precision optics, compared to other options at the time. The 35mm negative was considered miniature, everyone was using roll/sheet film or plates. Good point but it's clearly changed in modern times. High performance is modern concept by its self. The M9 was a landmark camera that stood for performance. All of the odern lenses are statements of that too. The gap between Medium Format and smaller formats is changing and people want that quality in a small package. Small is the new Big. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spydrxx Posted February 21, 2014 Share #35 Posted February 21, 2014 For years the marketers have challenged their audiences to achieve heights previously unknown, made easier with the latest and greatest "improved version" of whatever. Sort of a feeding frenzy achieved by chumming the waters. There is no doubt that each generation of lenses takes advantage of technology to achieve improvements in performance of some sort. Marketers try to make those improvements important to a broad range of users creating a demand for their product, while in fact, the differences really matter to only a small segment. But, we all want our output to be better....more artistic, more technically "correct", sharper across the entire field, les coma, less veiling flare, even performance throughout the entire range of apertures, and so on and so on. At some point many of us fall prey and shout, "Yeah...that's what I want" and of course there is a latest and greatest lens which promises eternal photography bliss (until the next generation). It is human behavior. But as many noted earlier in this thread...a point comes when many of us realize our capabilities weren't significantly enhanced by the new toy, and that the attraction of the features of older renditions renews itself....at least that is true of me. Sort of like the aging process....I can still be wowed by a gorgeous young girl new onto the scene, but I have matured to where I can appreciate the depth and warmth of the older gal even more. Enuf said! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 27, 2014 Share #36 Posted February 27, 2014 I never cease to be amazed by someone who buys the latest whatever camera/lens and then admits he only posts on the internet and has never printed one of his own images thus never making the full circle of image capture. He could do with a 6MP P&S. Sure it might take more effort, time and a little more money to make your own prints from your own images, but it sure creates a certain degree of satisfaction to hold your image in your hands that you printed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted February 27, 2014 Share #37 Posted February 27, 2014 I prefer to have a 12 year old scotch in hand rather than a 24 year old one in the cupboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stein K S Posted February 27, 2014 Share #38 Posted February 27, 2014 I never cease to be amazed by someone who buys the latest whatever camera/lens and then admits he only posts on the internet and has never printed one of his own images thus never making the full circle of image capture. He could do with a 6MP P&S. Sure it might take more effort, time and a little more money to make your own prints from your own images, but it sure creates a certain degree of satisfaction to hold your image in your hands that you printed. I totally agree! Photography to me in a way reaches its peak when I mount the final print using my selfmade pasepartout! And another comment that I can not let go: Would it be very offensive to claim that if "quality" (sharpness, bokeh etc) is viewed & judged by use of computer screens only, it all remains "theory"... or am I getting in trouble here now Regards, Stein Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted February 27, 2014 Share #39 Posted February 27, 2014 We are obsessed because we pay a lot of money and are told it is the best. We can get 90% of Leica lens quality for a fraction of the price. Nikon lenses are not cheap as the pro grade ones are still 45% of Leica primes. But there are cheaper 1.8 speed alternatives for half that or less. Leica has no inexpensive lenses. I don`t consider Summarits inexpensive. Leica imaging chain is different than Nikon or Canon. They would like you to believe it is the glass. Maybe a little, but put some R glass like 100 APO on a Nikon and you will see. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted February 27, 2014 Share #40 Posted February 27, 2014 We are obsessed because we pay a lot of money and are told it is the best. We can get 90% of Leica lens quality for a fraction of the price. Nikon lenses are not cheap as the pro grade ones are still 45% of Leica primes. But there are cheaper 1.8 speed alternatives for half that or less. Leica has no inexpensive lenses. I don`t consider Summarits inexpensive. Leica imaging chain is different than Nikon or Canon. They would like you to believe it is the glass. Maybe a little, but put some R glass like 100 APO on a Nikon and you will see. I keep seeing that posted "We are told it is the best". Who's exactly is telling us that? If I have a choice I personally don't want 90% of what is available. If the cost is too high don't buy it. You have choices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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