lenicolas Posted February 15, 2014 Share #1  Posted February 15, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi!  First of all, this thread is not about comparing sharpness of these 2 lenses!  I have read a few reviews of each of those lenses, I know that both would be adequate for me, so the choice is gonna be done on details...  Hence I'd like to ask users of those lenses what they think about their caracteristics other than sharpness.  A word about my needs : this lens will be used on a M240 or M9 (60/40 chance of getting the M240). My kit will be 50 summicron IV and a 21mm, so this 21 will see a lot of use. I'll use the kit for general work (corporate reportages, weddings, and the odd band shoot or architecture assignement) and travels.  Things I wonder about :  - Finder bloquage of each of these lenses? - How long is the focus throw? do you love it? hate it? - The elmarit is said to have more distortion (retro-focus design), does Camera Raw get rid of it easily? do you lose any sharpness? - The zeiss should have more vignette problems and color cast... How do you code it? do you get rid of all problems? - Uniformity of the look, does anyone use one of these with a 50 summicron? how close are the results in color, contrast, feel? - Investment-wise, I know Leica lenses retain their value very well and even increase it, but it seems like the Elmarit Asph has been on a downward route since the SE came out (a shop in my town has one for 1500euros w/o finder with a warranty) do you think it will drop even more? - Any other point I may have not considered...  One last thing : I have discarded the voigtlander options, the f/4,5 biogon, the Elmarit preAsph, the super elmar... So it's really down to those two, no need to tell me about other 21mm  Thanks a lot for your insights! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 15, 2014 Posted February 15, 2014 Hi lenicolas, Take a look here Elmarit 21 Asph OR Zeiss Biogon 2,8/21 on M240?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
lenicolas Posted February 15, 2014 Author Share #2 Â Posted February 15, 2014 Oh, and of course if you have images made with these lenses to share, that would be highly apreciated! After all, it's photos that sell lenses Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted February 16, 2014 Share #3  Posted February 16, 2014 I have the 2.8/21 Elmarit ASPH plus the 4.5 C Biogon, not the 2.8 Biogon. I love the C Biogon on the M8, but on the M the red sides are essentially impossible to fix with CornerFix. The 2.8/21 ASPH has its tinge of red too, easily dealt with in my experience.  Here's one that has the CornerFix treatment, shot in late afternoon toward dusk, ISO 500 and 1/45 and f/3.4, intrigued by all the yellow with the turquoise house. Using LR 5.3, no correction for distortion, only default noise reduction, minimal sharpening on conversion to jpeg. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/222105-elmarit-21-asph-or-zeiss-biogon-2821-on-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2533327'>More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share #4  Posted February 16, 2014 Thank you Dougg!  I don't see a lot of distortion in that shot, and I like the way the car pops out on my screen even though you have a large depth of field. The corners look clean to me  What other M lenses do you use? do you think the images from this lens blend well?  I'm wondering if the look of this asph lens would match that of my Mandler summicron.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted February 16, 2014 Share #5 Â Posted February 16, 2014 I say save up for a 21 SEM. You won't regret it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share #6  Posted February 16, 2014 But f/3,4 seems so slow!!! I have 6x7 lenses faster than that  At f/2,8 the elmarit asph or the biogon would already be my slowest 35mm lens... I figured I could live with that, but I would shoot wide open half the time (that's what is happening with my Nikon 21mm option). No way I'm paying more to have half a stop less light..  And when I'm indoors, shooting the summicron at 400iso, the SEM would need 1250iso. Dreadful thought.  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
iedei Posted February 16, 2014 Share #7 Â Posted February 16, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) definitely the Elmarit. Â the Elmarit ASPH is a very sharp lens....if you're looking for a bit more character with less sharpness then also look at the pre-ASPH. Â as for the Super Elmar......it's overpriced and really not as characterful as the Elmarit lenses are. A bit more 'clinical' and maybe even more sharp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share #8 Â Posted February 16, 2014 How much more character? How much less sharpness? Examples please! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrogers Posted February 16, 2014 Share #9 Â Posted February 16, 2014 I shoot the 21 asph on an M9 quite a bit (it accounts for about a third of my photos). Â - Finder bloquage of each of these lenses? Â I use a thumbs up (it raises the finder a bit) and the Zeiss 21 finder with the 21 asph, and always leave the hood on the lens. There's no notable interference with that setup. Without a thumbs up you likely block a bit at the bottom (maybe %5?) Â Through the rangefinder I don't pay much attention to blockage, but it's pretty extensive. Probably 20%. Â - How long is the focus throw? do you love it? hate it? Â It has a moderately short throw that matches other Leica lenses (for instance, when the tab edge points down it's at about 6 feet on both the 21 and the 35 Lux---the throw also exactly matches my 50 Summicron, but that doesn't have the tab). Â I love it, in particular that the throw matches from lens to lens. I love and often use the DOF scale on the 21. Â - The elmarit is said to have more distortion (retro-focus design), does Camera Raw get rid of it easily? do you lose any sharpness? Â I shoot primarily people and landscape, and have no issues with the distortion. I know it's there, but don't notice enough in what I shoot to do anything about it. Â Sharpness has always been excellent on the lens. The center is always excellent. The corners aren't perfect wide open, but are excellent by 5.6. I don't hesitate to use the lens wide open, but when shooting detailed landscape, I often shoot at f8. I expect there's plenty of sharpness for distortion correction, but can't speak from experience there. Â - Uniformity of the look, does anyone use one of these with a 50 summicron? how close are the results in color, contrast, feel? Â Hmm. I'm mostly a black and white photographer, so perhaps others may comment on color differences more eloquently. I've noted no difference in color rendering. Â The 21 is the gentlest-rendering asph lens I've used. Less contrasty than other asph lenses, and softer wide open, but gets very sharp stopped down. The 50 also visibly sharpens by stopping down, and also is a moderate contrast lens. It seems like my 50 flares more readily, and has more noticeable halos on high-contrast edges. Â In my opinion, the 21 has a sharper, more contrasty, more modern look than the 50, but they're not so far apart that it matters, and I think they make an excellent pair. Â - Investment-wise, I know Leica lenses retain their value very well and even increase it, but it seems like the Elmarit Asph has been on a downward route since the SE came out (a shop in my town has one for 1500euros w/o finder with a warranty) do you think it will drop even more? Â The values of Leica M lenses went a little crazy as Leica's lens production couldn't keep up with demand until recently. Today most of the lenses seem to have dropped to pre-shortage price levels. 1500 euros sounds like a good price, I wouldn't wait for it to go lower. Â - Any other point I may have not considered... Â Half-stop aperture clicks on Leica lenses allows click-for-click changes between aperture and shutter speed. I like lens shade caps (maybe Zeiss has these, I don't know). I like the matching focus throw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 16, 2014 Author Share #10  Posted February 16, 2014 Thanks for the extensive answer xroger! I didn't think about the matching focus throw. My 50 summicron has the tab so that would be interesting. I think I'll make the elmarit asph my first choice. Haven't planned to get it before I get a M240 in a couple of months, but I hope I can find a copy for the kind of price I mentioned earlier then. Thanks everyone for the help!  Envoyé de mon HTC One X en utilisant Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted February 17, 2014 Share #11 Â Posted February 17, 2014 Some examples in this collection of my use of the Biogon f2.8. Mostly on an M9 but since late last year, on an M240. One of my favourite lenses and I would not be without it. Focus-throw is excellent, it has 1/3rd click-stops and even with the hood on, finder blockage is acceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 17, 2014 Share #12 Â Posted February 17, 2014 3.4 is only half a stop lower. It is, by all accounts, a far superior lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share #13 Â Posted February 17, 2014 Thanks for sharing your (very good) collection! On the image named "stern sentinels" though I can see some heavy vignetting and a bit of a magenta cast on the top corners. Did you not code for that shot? Is this what the lens looks like uncorrected? Â I'm impressed with the lack of distortion. This biogon design is really brilliant. And I like the colors you're getting indoors. Â Like I suspected, both lenses seem very good and I don't think either is bad choice. I'm a bit more drown to the elmarit-asph for the similar handling to my summicron... But the Zeiss can be had for cheaper and that means I can afford another year of film for my m6 It will probably be a matter of what is available near me when I decide to pull the trigger. Â Thanks again for your help, and by all means, please continue sharing photos on this thread, it can always be helpful for someone later! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith (M) Posted February 17, 2014 Share #14 Â Posted February 17, 2014 On the image named "stern sentinels" though I can see some heavy vignetting and a bit of a magenta cast on the top corners. Did you not code for that shot? Is this what the lens looks like uncorrected? Â On that particular image I used Color Efex Pro to create the vignette and extra punch to the colours of the rising sun on the white clouds. So the lens is entirely innocent! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 17, 2014 Author Share #15  Posted February 17, 2014 Ok. The vignetting being almost null on the bottom corners, I suspected something wasn't quite natural about it  Envoyé de mon HTC One X en utilisant Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted February 18, 2014 Share #16  Posted February 18, 2014 The 21 Elmarit ASPH was fitted with UV/IR Cut filter changing reddish corners to cyan, fixed with CornerFix. Lens has native coding. Slight purple fringing fixed in LR, edge effects look similar to Zeiss 18mm. ISO=800, 1/25 @ f/3.4 As a perspective experiment, stick your nose close to the center and then roll your eyes down to the lower right corner, and now the stretch distortion looks normal. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/222105-elmarit-21-asph-or-zeiss-biogon-2821-on-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2534379'>More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 18, 2014 Author Share #17 Â Posted February 18, 2014 The distortion in that shot doesn't bother me at all! Â Do you se Cornerfix for all your photos with the Elmarit Asph? No way around that? Did you have to set up a profile for the lens or does it already exist? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougg Posted February 19, 2014 Share #18  Posted February 19, 2014 The distortion in that shot doesn't bother me at all! Do you se Cornerfix for all your photos with the Elmarit Asph? No way around that? Did you have to set up a profile for the lens or does it already exist? Hi - I see noticeable reddish edges at each side, which might well be obscured by subject matter in some shots and more obvious in others, a bit stronger on the left. My use is complicated by the UV/IR Cut filter I prefer to have on, which counteracts the red and over-does it to make for faintly cyan edges, a little stronger on the right. CornerFix will take care of either the red or cyan tinting, but I would choose to use CornerFix either way.  For the CornerFix profile, shoot a white textureless surface closeup out of focus, exposed for white result, evenly lit by representative lighting, and I just choose f/5.6 as a good compromise, though for best accuracy the correction varies a bit with lens opening and one could do wide open and more closed down as well, or every single opening if you wish. Then you can open this DNG in CornerFix and have it create the profile file, which I name appropriately and save in a M240 Profiles folder. Then, later when I have a bunch of fresh DNGs to process, I first use CornerFix to batch-process my take using that saved profile, and the output DNGs are placed next to the source files with _CF added to the filenames. Go to post-processing as usual.  Here are the same two photos without CornerFix, showing that bit of cyan so you can assess it for yourself. Of course CornerFix reduced the vignetting as well, lightening the corners as well as removing the cyan. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/222105-elmarit-21-asph-or-zeiss-biogon-2821-on-m240/?do=findComment&comment=2534954'>More sharing options...
Dougg Posted February 19, 2014 Share #19 Â Posted February 19, 2014 Maybe a bit off the specific topic of this thread, but I've been on a campaign recently to try all my wider lenses on the M240 to check the corner color shading, and make CornerFix correction profiles. Â What really started it was going off on vacation last Novemeber with a 28mm Summicron on the camera for the flight, and for documenting/inspecting the rental car upon arrival. Used a 50mm (C-Sonnar, no edge effects) for the rest of the trip, but when processing this first set with the 28 I noticed some cyan sneaking into the edges but put it down to the plexiglas of the airplane window. Well, the white rental car had faint cyan edges too! This had not happened on the M9... Â Yep, so far they ALL show this effect: 18 Distagon's effects look just like the 21 Elmarit ASPH, the 25 Biogon corners look like the 28 Summicron's, the 4.5/21mm C-Biogon cannot be corrected with only one run through CornerFix, might take two, similar effect to the 35 C-Biogon but much stronger. I just did some shots with my old v.1 35 Summicron and CornerFix improves its output too, about like the 1.4/35 Nokton. Probably the same for the goggled f/2.8 Summaron on the camera now. Â For all of these I've made CornerFix profiles with and without the UV/IR filter, and the originals show reddish edges without and cyan-ish edges with, to varying degrees. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenicolas Posted February 19, 2014 Author Share #20  Posted February 19, 2014 How long does it take to run a batch of compressed DNGs through cornering? Let's say 300-400 images? I guess it depends on computer power too so could you specify what machine you have? Thanks.  "Envoyé depuis mon HTC One X avec Tapatalk" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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