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X Vario AF Issues Follow Up


barjohn

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Tom,

 

Perhaps that is true but I don't think so. Lloyd Chambers of Diglloyd did discover and point out the issue in his review ( a paid subscription reviewer). His reviews are probably among the most technically accurate and challenging with photos to illustrate a critique and substantial knowledge both technical and as a photographer behind his critiques.

 

Here is but one quote from him on the subject: "This is one example, but field shots prove out a troubling behavior: the lens is excellent, but less than sharp images are fairly common due to autofocus error." Your statement above that no professional reviewer has identified the problem is incorrect. Sorry. :)

 

His conclusion on the XV's AF was that despite having a very sharp lens, sharp images require that the AF system perform accurately, precisely and consistently and that was not the case with the XV.

 

I have used and owned a wide range of mirrorless cameras including the Sony A7s and I have not seen this type of error in those cameras where they indicated perfect focus but the focus was off. Some are faster than others and the Leica is in the slow category, but CDAF is usually more accurate than PDAF on s DSLR because the focus plane is measured on teh sensor rather than from an off sensor device. The hybrid sensors with both CDAF and PDAF on the sensor plane are generally quicker and more accurate because final focus adjustment is done using the CDAF system.

 

On loving a camera, there are many things I do love about the camera, such as the build, the appearance, the feel, the manual focus, the zoom lens's sharpness across the frame and zoom range and most but not all of the UI; however, the AF inconsistency is just one of those things that spoils all the rest for me. After the terribly slow AF of the X1 and not much better X2, one would think Lecia would have made getting it right a priority on the XV. They not only failed in how slow it is but in it lack of consistent accuracy. I can't speak to the other X cameras as I didn't purchase them precisely because of their reputation for being slow and Leica's insistent use of dated technology in their slow processor and low resolution LCD. If I just wanted to take images of mostly still objects, the Sigma DP Ms are hard to beat and produce sharper and more detailed images (at lower ISOs only).

 

Lloyd Chambers is a reviewer who is well known as a Leica hater, so I would give him diminished (or no) credibility on the AF issue (or any other issue involving a Leica, frankly).

 

I have had an X1 for a few years. Yes the autofocus can be slow. But I have taken a lot of really sharp beautiful photos with that camera (it's the lens).

 

I am not expecting the X-Vario will have the best possible AF system available in a modern camera. If it works 99% of the time as it should, then that will be fine by me. The zoom lens on the X-Vario, compact size, and sensible, intuitive operational controls, is what I desire from the X-Vario. If the AF is as bad as you say, then I will find that out in a hurry, and it will indeed be a spoiler. In that regard, I will report back after I have had the camera in my hands for a few days and put it through its paces.

 

FWIW, I have a Sony A7R with two lenses and am seriously considering dumping it. Great lenses, great AF, great high ISO performance, but all spoiled by a ridiculous series of unintelligible menus, sub-menus, and sub-sub-sub-sub menus. Using the Sony is all about focusing on the camera menus instead of focusing on the photo you want to take. I used the A7R ONCE in Northern Minnesota two weeks ago when it was -30 F. Believe me, the last thing you want to do at -30 F is mess around with Sony menus to set the camera properly. This was not an issue with my Lecia X1 under the same conditions. No camera is perfect. They all have their flaws. It's just a matter of what you want. For me, I prefer Leica lenses and their IQ, and Leica simplicity and sensibleness of operation. I have grown to despise the Sony menu-happy version of cameradom (I have owned and used the A7R, the NEX-6, and the RX100, and will likely only keep the RX100). If you want a video arcade experience, and like poking through endless menus while you miss your shot, then the Sony is your camera.

 

To each his own. See this:

Edited by tundraline
Forgot to add something.
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The AF issue occurs with my X Vario so infrequently that I don't consider it a problem. Perhaps one shot in 30 will be out of focus, and when it does happen I'm not sure if it's me or the camera. I would suggest that when shooting in critical situations where a missed frame is a big problem, use the manual focus. It's fast (once you get used to it), easy and extremely accurate.

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Lloyd Chambers is a reviewer who is well known as a Leica hater, so I would give him diminished (or no) credibility on the AF issue (or any other issue involving a Leica, frankly).

 

I have had an X1 for a few years. Yes the autofocus can be slow. But I have taken a lot of really sharp beautiful photos with that camera (it's the lens).

 

I am not expecting the X-Vario will have the best possible AF system available in a modern camera. If it works 99% of the time as it should, then that will be fine by me. The zoom lens on the X-Vario, compact size, and sensible, intuitive operational controls, is what I desire from the X-Vario. If the AF is as bad as you say, then I will find that out in a hurry, and it will indeed be a spoiler. In that regard, I will report back after I have had the camera in my hands for a few days and put it through its paces.

 

FWIW, I have a Sony A7R with two lenses and am seriously considering dumping it. Great lenses, great AF, great high ISO performance, but all spoiled by a ridiculous series of unintelligible menus, sub-menus, and sub-sub-sub-sub menus. Using the Sony is all about focusing on the camera menus instead of focusing on the photo you want to take. I used the A7R ONCE in Northern Minnesota two weeks ago when it was -30 F. Believe me, the last thing you want to do at -30 F is mess around with Sony menus to set the camera properly. This was not an issue with my Lecia X1 under the same conditions. No camera is perfect. They all have their flaws. It's just a matter of what you want. For me, I prefer Leica lenses and their IQ, and Leica simplicity and sensibleness of operation. I have grown to despise the Sony menu-happy version of cameradom (I have owned and used the A7R, the NEX-6, and the RX100, and will likely only keep the RX100). If you want a video arcade experience, and like poking through endless menus while you miss your shot, then the Sony is your camera.

 

To each his own. See this: Joel Meyerowitz - My Life with Leica (take one) on Vimeo

 

I'm a manual focus guy, I hate AF even with my high end DSLRs, I prefer MF, always.

Regarding the XV, already told John that the issue, whether it's with all the XVs out there or just a batch of them, Leica will fix that. Remember, the XV's firmware is yet to be updated, so patience guys. It would be really a pity not to enjoy the XV phenomenal lens capabilities just because we get some images out of focus. Take your time, focusing and framing and metering and feel the joy of it. This thread is overdone IMHO.

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I received my Leica X-Vario camera today and ran it through some paces. I did not detect any AF problems (although perhaps the AF on the X-Vario operated a bit slowly). I compared the X-Vario to a Sony A7R with 55mm and 35mm prime lenses (using a tripod), all set at the same ISO (200) and aperture (f/8), and focal length setting (for the X-Vario zoom lens). All photos were taken using manual focus. The results were plain. The Sony A7R produced unquestionably superior results (especially in regards to sharpness and detail), which may not be surprising given its larger full-frame sensor and the use of two prime lenses (instead of a single zoom lens set at different focal lengths). I will not post the photos I took this afternoon to avoid getting into an extended back and forth and critique with forum members. The results have made me rethink my next move. The size difference between the two cameras is not very substantial, although I am sure the Sony A7R with a Zeiss 24-70mm zoom lens would be bigger than the X-Vario. The differences in results appear to be due principally to the larger sensor size on the Sony A7R, and the enhanced acuity of the Zeiss prime lenses compared to the Leica zoom lens. In view of the results, I am going to reverse course, return the X-Vario, and keep the Sony A7R despite its fiddly menu-driven controls. I'll just have to learn to live with Sony's control methodology, will order a Zeiss 24-70mm zoom lens, and dispose of the two Zeiss prime lenses that I have collected. The results, which speak for themselves, I must acknowledge. Previous comparisons between the M240 and the A7R revealed the Leica M240 to be the clear winner. I just do not want to take an M240 and a Leica prime lens on a 100-mile jaunt through ice and snow on a bike. The Sony will be a safer (and cheaper) alternative for that limited purpose.

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Good and reasonable points. I don't think the results are so much a function of the lenses, as they are of the two different size sensors, but of course I could be wrong about that. I want to return the X-Vario camera ASAP so I do wind up being stuck with it. I did another test this morning comparing the two camera/lens combinations, just to satisfy myself the results obtained yesterday were accurate. In all fairness, the X-Vario has a very nice lens on it. The combination of this excellent lens with the APS-C sensor, however, just does not punch at the same weight as an A7R + Zeiss prime lens. For non-pixel-peepers, the differences might not be enough to be concerned about, but for me they are. I am disappointed, as I was really looking forward to the simplicity of the X-Vario, and was also fed up with the Sony menu-driven control system. No camera is perfect. They all have their foibles. And I still have my M240, which is my go-to camera.

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While I hate to diverge from the issue of AF in accuracy into the area of the user interface, some of these comments disparaging one camera's UI and praising the XV's are not very accurate in my opinion. A few examples:

1. Inability to select DNG only

2. Auto Review appears in EVF even when turned off

3. Review JPG limited in resolution making max magnification worhtless

4. Inability to scroll images at magnified view

5. Inconsistent use of menu/set button (sometimes you need to press set after selecting an item and somethimes you don't

6. Multi-level menus

7. ISO minimum speed can't be made higher, like 125, etc.

8. Inability to have image review on LCD while leaving EVF live

9. Slow AF

10. No DOF displayed in manual focus mode

11. Inability to reasign functions on buttons

 

I could go on but will stop here as I think this list makes the point that the UI is not that great. Merely having shutter speed, aperture and compensation dials does not make for a simple/great UI.

 

An earlier poster stated that one just needed to be patient and wait for Leica to publish a firmware update and to look to the M240 as to how the camera freezing issue had been addressed with a firmware update. I think one needs to look at that with a more critical eye. First, it took well over 7 months to produce that firmware release and second, the release failed to fix the problem as the camera is still demonstrating the same issue. It took Leica several years to address SD card issues and they still crop up from time-to-time. The mechanical parts of a Leica camera are beautiful and generally well made; hoever the electronics and firmware is where Leica appears to be very weak and lacking in engineering talent. In all fairness to their electronic and software engineers, the problem may lie in the company's culture and management. It could very well be that the electronics and firmware part of the company is given second class status and the results would tend to show this. It reminds me of years ago when I worked for a super computer company and how the micro-computer part of the company was treated. The company went out of business even though it had superior micro-computer technology but it was held back by the more poswerful and entrenched super computer part of the company that did not want the company to move in the direction of micro-computers. The micro division was kept from competing to aggressivley technically but the competition was not hampered by similar politics.

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While I hate to diverge from the issue of AF in accuracy into the area of the user interface, some of these comments disparaging one camera's UI and praising the XV's are not very accurate in my opinion. A few examples:

1. Inability to select DNG only

2. Auto Review appears in EVF even when turned off

3. Review JPG limited in resolution making max magnification worhtless

4. Inability to scroll images at magnified view

5. Inconsistent use of menu/set button (sometimes you need to press set after selecting an item and somethimes you don't

6. Multi-level menus

7. ISO minimum speed can't be made higher, like 125, etc.

8. Inability to have image review on LCD while leaving EVF live

9. Slow AF

10. No DOF displayed in manual focus mode

11. Inability to reasign functions on buttons

 

I could go on but will stop here as I think this list makes the point that the UI is not that great. Merely having shutter speed, aperture and compensation dials does not make for a simple/great UI.

 

An earlier poster stated that one just needed to be patient and wait for Leica to publish a firmware update and to look to the M240 as to how the camera freezing issue had been addressed with a firmware update. I think one needs to look at that with a more critical eye. First, it took well over 7 months to produce that firmware release and second, the release failed to fix the problem as the camera is still demonstrating the same issue. It took Leica several years to address SD card issues and they still crop up from time-to-time. The mechanical parts of a Leica camera are beautiful and generally well made; hoever the electronics and firmware is where Leica appears to be very weak and lacking in engineering talent. In all fairness to their electronic and software engineers, the problem may lie in the company's culture and management. It could very well be that the electronics and firmware part of the company is given second class status and the results would tend to show this. It reminds me of years ago when I worked for a super computer company and how the micro-computer part of the company was treated. The company went out of business even though it had superior micro-computer technology but it was held back by the more poswerful and entrenched super computer part of the company that did not want the company to move in the direction of micro-computers. The micro division was kept from competing to aggressivley technically but the competition was not hampered by similar politics.

 

With all due respect, John, I could not disagree more about your comments and conclusions regarding Leica's user interface (or "UI" in psuedo technie talk). This is one area where Leica shines. The Sony user interface on the A7R is a joke, just like their so-called "instruction manual."

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An earlier poster stated that one just needed to be patient and wait for Leica to publish a firmware update and to look to the M240 as to how the camera freezing issue had been addressed with a firmware update. I think one needs to look at that with a more critical eye. First, it took well over 7 months to produce that firmware release and second, the release failed to fix the problem as the camera is still demonstrating the same issue. It took Leica several years to address SD card issues and they still crop up from time-to-time. The mechanical parts of a Leica camera are beautiful and generally well made; hoever the electronics and firmware is where Leica appears to be very weak and lacking in engineering talent. In all fairness to their electronic and software engineers, the problem may lie in the company's culture and management. It could very well be that the electronics and firmware part of the company is given second class status and the results would tend to show this. It reminds me of years ago when I worked for a super computer company and how the micro-computer part of the company was treated. The company went out of business even though it had superior micro-computer technology but it was held back by the more poswerful and entrenched super computer part of the company that did not want the company to move in the direction of micro-computers. The micro division was kept from competing to aggressivley technically but the competition was not hampered by similar politics.

 

John: The next time a really, really, big technical or organizational problem pops up somewhere on the globe I hope world leaders will track you down and find you so that you can present your considered and erudite thoughts and opinions to them. Best regards, Tom

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Dear John,

 

You have now expressed your views for almost six months. I have asked you before, whether you are being compensated directly or indirectly by a third party for doing this. You have not bothered to answer that.

 

Your behavior is of somebody that is not going to accept that others disagree with him. Not very mature. I get the impression your only purpose is to harm the good name of Leica.

 

Why don't you just sell the camera and take your loss. It is very clear you don't like the camera, nor the company.

 

Thank you,

Lars

Edited by larsv
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Dear John,

 

You have now expressed your views for almost six months. I have asked you before, whether you are being compensated directly or indirectly by a third party for doing this. You have not bothered to answer that.

 

Your behavior is of somebody that is not going to accept that others disagree with him. Not very mature. I get the impression your only purpose is to harm the good name of Leica.

 

Why don't you just sell the camera and take your loss. It is very clear you don't like the camera, nor the company.

 

Thank you,

Lars

 

Lars, guess what. he convinced me, really, looking back at my XV pictures and imperfections I feel so sick and dizzy that I almost throw up. I won't sell it or return it. no no, I'll just throw it out of the window and get myself a passionate engaging Japanese masterpiece. I'm sure, Leica owners are gonna be returning or throwing their nasty faulty uninspiring piece of crab out of their windows too.

Leica is doomed. ViVa la JAPANESE revoluciòn

Edited by XVarior
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Sorry guys ....... But I am convinced all of this is down to technique and familiarity.

 

Accept that AF in almost all of its implementations is fallible ..... and just focus the damn thing on the nearest bit of subject that you know had enough contrast to lock accurately then recompose and shoot. I'm on holiday in Cyprus and have taken over a 1000 shots so far ..... and a handful are OOF ....... and they are because of the idiot behind the viewfinder....:rolleyes:

 

In contrast I had nothing but trouble with the A7r's AF ....... and have found the XV's functionality superb ...... the bracketing implementation makes me smile every time I use it ..... and the menu system is intuitive and quick without the need to press 'set' to change everything as with most cameras. WB and exposure is spot on. MF implementation with the zoomed central bit (and with review) is super.

 

My only complaint is the obvious firmware error that doesn't actually force review onto the LCD when the EVF is attached ...... Otherwise I'm very happy with this camera ....:)

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Well, I have my X Vario for a few months and I have not yet had any troubles with the autofocus. Sure, sometimes it cannot focus but in that case you get a red confirmation of that. The most effective way of focussing is manual, but have to admit that according to my experience manual focussing is easier with my M8 rangefinder when compared to the X Vario.

 

Remark: Sometimes I ask myself if this is really still the Leica Camera Forum. If you want to know everything about SONY cameras, just visit the Leica Camera Forum (referring to the thread of the A7®.

 

Best

Edited by rjans
A7(r) reference
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With all due respect, John, I could not disagree more about your comments and conclusions regarding Leica's user interface (or "UI" in psuedo technie talk). This is one area where Leica shines. The Sony user interface on the A7R is a joke, just like their so-called "instruction manual."

 

I have to disagree with you on Leica shinning in respect to this UI. I am certainly not defending Sony's UI either nor would I defend their user manual. I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Among the better UIs that come to mind are the Ricoh GRs and the Sigma DPMs.

 

Human interfaces is a major science in its own right. We have three or four hundred scientists that just work this type of problem to insure that man and machine will interact in the most efficient way possible under the most dire operating conditions.

 

I have pointed out specific failings in the UI and you just disagree without any counter other than to claim somebody elses is worst. If you had identified what was wrong with each item on my list then we could have had a meaningful dialog on what makes for a good UI. :D

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I have to disagree with you on Leica shinning in respect to this UI. I am certainly not defending Sony's UI either nor would I defend their user manual. I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. Among the better UIs that come to mind are the Ricoh GRs and the Sigma DPMs.

 

Human interfaces is a major science in its own right. We have three or four hundred scientists that just work this type of problem to insure that man and machine will interact in the most efficient way possible under the most dire operating conditions.

 

I have pointed out specific failings in the UI and you just disagree without any counter other than to claim somebody elses is worst. If you had identified what was wrong with each item on my list then we could have had a meaningful dialog on what makes for a good UI. :D

 

Blather does not meaningful dialog make.

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While I hate to diverge from the issue of AF in accuracy into the area of the user interface, some of these comments disparaging one camera's UI and praising the XV's are not very accurate in my opinion. A few examples:

1. Inability to select DNG only

2. Auto Review appears in EVF even when turned off

3. Review JPG limited in resolution making max magnification worhtless

4. Inability to scroll images at magnified view

5. Inconsistent use of menu/set button (sometimes you need to press set after selecting an item and somethimes you don't

6. Multi-level menus

7. ISO minimum speed can't be made higher, like 125, etc.

8. Inability to have image review on LCD while leaving EVF live

9. Slow AF

10. No DOF displayed in manual focus mode

11. Inability to reasign functions on buttons

 

I could go on but will stop here as I think this list makes the point that the UI is not that great. Merely having shutter speed, aperture and compensation dials does not make for a simple/great UI.

 

An earlier poster stated that one just needed to be patient and wait for Leica to publish a firmware update and to look to the M240 as to how the camera freezing issue had been addressed with a firmware update. I think one needs to look at that with a more critical eye. First, it took well over 7 months to produce that firmware release and second, the release failed to fix the problem as the camera is still demonstrating the same issue. It took Leica several years to address SD card issues and they still crop up from time-to-time. The mechanical parts of a Leica camera are beautiful and generally well made; hoever the electronics and firmware is where Leica appears to be very weak and lacking in engineering talent. In all fairness to their electronic and software engineers, the problem may lie in the company's culture and management. It could very well be that the electronics and firmware part of the company is given second class status and the results would tend to show this. It reminds me of years ago when I worked for a super computer company and how the micro-computer part of the company was treated. The company went out of business even though it had superior micro-computer technology but it was held back by the more poswerful and entrenched super computer part of the company that did not want the company to move in the direction of micro-computers. The micro division was kept from competing to aggressivley technically but the competition was not hampered by similar politics.

 

Maybe I am a simple man, but all I really need on a camera are aperture, speed, ISO, and compensation dials. I do not want to read a lengthy manual to learn how to operate a camera if I can avoid it. My first Leica was an M8.2 whose manual I did browse, not dissect. After that, with my M9, MM and ex-X1, I have never even opened the manuals. As others have suggested, if that camera bugs you so much, you should sell it and be happy instead of losing sleep over it and having to put up with these responses.

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Why don't you answer my question on compensation? The only thing you are doing is repeating your points and hoping for new people to join in.

 

I work for the U.S. Navy as a Science and Technology Officer. That is my only source of compensation. What's your's?

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