waloszek Posted February 6, 2014 Share #41 Posted February 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am not barjohn, but my X Vario suffers from similar AF issues. So I think I can answer your questions: >> If the Xvario mis-focuses at times, and apparently by not just a small margin, wouldn't you be able to immediately tell by looking at the screen? And by immediately I mean BEFORE you fully press the shutter button? And if so, wouldn't an easy solution be to simply release and repress the shutter button to force the camera to refocus? It took me some time to learn to recognize those gross mis-focuses in the viewfinder already after half-pressing the shutter release button. This requires some patience, and a close look at what you see in the viewfinder. At the beginning, I often just pressed the shutter release button after getting a "green" confirmation without looking too carefully at the details... Slight mis-focusing, which is also a problem that I encounter fairly often, is, however, harder to recognize in the viewfinder. I found out that setting automatic review to "zoom" helps -- provided you take the time to look at the review image... As far as I know, bar john also uses the "zoom" setting. >> Still, it seems odd that the camera indicates correct focus when the opposite is true. Are you operating with a fixed AF field, e.g. in the center of the image? Or does the Xvario "select" the AF field according to its desire (I hate that feature and switch it off first thing whenever I get a new camera). The X Vario only selects AF fields when using 11-point AF. But we also find mis-focusing for 1-point and spot AF where the X Vario simply selects the center. With respect to the camera indicating a "correct focus while the opposite is true", I recently stumbled about a remark in the manual of my Ricoh GR. The manual states (for the "easy shooting mode") that under certain conditions the camera may mis-focus although it indicates correct focus (for example, in low contrast scenes). Details of my investigations and on the Ricoh remark can be found here: Leica X Vario: Functional Issues - Autofocus Best regards, Gerd P. S.: At the moment, I am screening the photos that I took in the second half of 2013 with respect to mis-focusing. Most of them were taken with 11-point AF (at least, at the beginning). I find correctly focused photos and nearly identical photos that are mis-focused. I am currently in the tedious process of documenting all this. Perhaps I will also publish this on my site if I will find the time... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 6, 2014 Posted February 6, 2014 Hi waloszek, Take a look here X Vario AF Issues Follow Up. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
harvey999999 Posted February 6, 2014 Share #42 Posted February 6, 2014 Does anyone know if Leica company people read this Forum? I would have thought they do, even as photography enthusiasts. The silence from the company about these well-documented faults is deafening. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted February 6, 2014 Share #43 Posted February 6, 2014 Does anyone know if Leica company people read this Forum? I would have thought they do, even as photography enthusiasts. The silence from the company about these well-documented faults is deafening. ..... faults or just a fact of life with AF ..... ??? ...... every Nikon I have ever had with AF has several pages in the manual with excuses outlining why it won't work all the time ..... ...... and sure enough, every camera I have ever had has a significant % of OOF shots..... I am always vigilant when using it as I am aware it is easily fooled ........ .... I have a black dog, and with my Sony A7r 80% of the shots of him were OOF ..... So far I've found the XV rather well behaved on the AF front ...... 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted February 6, 2014 Share #44 Posted February 6, 2014 ..... faults or just a fact of life with AF ..... ??? ...... every Nikon I have ever had with AF has several pages in the manual with excuses outlining why it won't work all the time ..... ...... and sure enough, every camera I have ever had has a significant % of OOF shots..... I am always vigilant when using it as I am aware it is easily fooled ........ .... I have a black dog, and with my Sony A7r 80% of the shots of him were OOF ..... So far I've found the XV rather well behaved on the AF front ...... Thanks for saying that. I was starting to think that my DSLRs were defective and my XVario the only perfect Leica managed to make. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsv Posted February 6, 2014 Share #45 Posted February 6, 2014 If you really want a problem to solve, try a fuji x pro 1. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 6, 2014 Share #46 Posted February 6, 2014 Rubbish... Sent from another Galaxy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted February 6, 2014 Share #47 Posted February 6, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...... and what is rubbish sent from another galaxy ? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share #48 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I am always using either 1 point or spot which is the center of the screen. To answer your question, most of the time I cannot see that it is out of focus prior to shooting the shot. The image is not magnified. I can sometimes tell after the shot when I have zoom review selected but it only shows for a second or less and it is easy to miss. If you are busy trying to follow the action and picking when to shoot, it is very easy to miss that it missed focus. Even when testing for this one can't always tell from looking at the LCD. I have to wear glasses when using the LCD so my vision up close is not the greatest. I have also shot with the EVF and due to its poor resolution it is easy to not catch. After wards zoomed in one step below max one can tell. At max zoom the image quality is so poor it is harder to tell. I have taken photos of the back of the camera displaying the out of focus image and the in focus image. As you can see, without magnification it can be difficult to tell. Then I have each magnified so you can clearly tell. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 7, 2014 by barjohn Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/221061-x-vario-af-issues-follow-up/?do=findComment&comment=2527489'>More sharing options...
larsv Posted February 7, 2014 Share #49 Posted February 7, 2014 Bill, Come again, please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share #50 Posted February 7, 2014 One of the pros of CDAF over PDAF is supposed to be focus accuracy versus speed. I too have gotten out of focus shots where I din't wait for the green confirmation or the subject moved and the shutter speed was too slow or the camera focused on a different object than the one I wanted it to focus on. But this error is none of those things. The camera says it is in focus, the object is still, the shutter speed is high and there is nothing to focus on where the camera set focus. On a subsequent shot or the prior shot it is focused where it should be. This is very different than saying it can't find focus due to insufficient contrast or too low light level. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 7, 2014 Author Share #51 Posted February 7, 2014 Testing today in daylight confirmed that the issue is in the camera and most likely the firmware. I have sent the following email to Leica NJ's manager: --------------------------------------- Bill, I appreciate that you sent me a replacement X Vario in hopes that it would resolve the mis-focusing auto focus. While this particular camera appears to be a little less prone to the problem, it still happens on a random basis. A rough calculation is about 7% of the time but do to its random nature it is hard to say with any certainty. If I had known what I know now, I would have returned the camera within the first 30 days to B&H for a refund. Unfortunately, I thought the mis-focused shots were due to user error and lack of familiarity with the camera and not with the camera. Having owned numerous cameras and being familiar with how CDAF will sometimes select the nearby higher contrast object, I initially thought that was what I was seeing. CDAF is known for its accuracy over PDAF though it is also known to be slower. After a bit I started to realize that there was nothing in the frame in focus so it wasn't like I had seen before where an object slightly in front or behind the plane of desired focus was in focus and the desired focus was soft, the entire image was soft. It wasn't until Gerd, a Leica User Forum member in discussing the same phenomena started discussing his observations and exploration via the hidden manufacturer's EXIF data that it became evident what the camera was doing. Prior to that I was also puzzled since the out of focus shots were often shot at f6.4 or higher where there should have been enough DOF to hide many focusing issues. The EXIF data revealed that the out of focus shots were due to the lens focus distance being set by the camera to a very close distance of around 1-1.5 meters or to infinity. In other words it was setting the lens to very close focus or vary far focus. The desired focus was typically in the range of 2.5 to 4 meters distance and the setting was far enough so that DOF could not cover up for the mistake. In each case, a focus confirmation was given by the camera with both the rectangle turning green and the sharp beep tone being heard. Here is a link to Gerd's far more detailed and thorough analysis of this problem: Leica X Vario: Functional Issues - Autofocus (Tests) As you can see, based on his plots, the camera mis-focuses at a variety of distances for an object the same distance away. As Gerd says in his article, he is patiently waiting and hoping that Leica will address and fix the issue and that I am not as patient as he is (all true). He has sent information to Leica Germany as have I and they routinely don't bother with a reply or in one case I received an acknowledgement that they received my email but no follow up. I spoke with your technicians today and they denied having any awareness of the issue. As I told your technician this greatly surprised me because I had sent my prior camera in and it had supposedly been repaired there and I had included a description of the problem with sample photos. I realize that some people are willing to live with this issue and use work-arounds like manual focus or shooting a burst of images and hoping at least one will be in focus. I am not interested in doing either. I want Leica to fix the issue or refund my purchase. Fixing the issue means addressing it within a reasonable time period of no more than 2 weeks. As an aside, it would really behoove Leica to look at Gerd's data and information as it provides the most accurate and detailed analysis of the problem. Given everything else happening at Leica, I suspect that fixing an X Vario problem is not a high priority, especially in light of the apparent low sales. Please advise me of Leica's intended action. Will Leica provide a fix or refund my purchase price or do nothing? I suppose a fourth option would be to exchange it for the new T when it is available, assuming that it does not have this same AF issue. _______________________________ If the issue were one that I just didn't like the camera, I would put it up for sale on eBay or Amazon and take my losses. I have done this before and it doesn't bother me to do it again. As I see it, I had fun using the camera and got some good photos and that was the cost of doing so. However, in this case, I feel I would be selling a defective product to an unsuspecting buyer and I have never done that. When I post that something I am selling is like new, it is "like new" with no known defects. Here, if I disclosed that I am selling the camera because it has an AF defect I am unwilling to accept, it would provoke one of two likely responses. Either no one would want to buy it or a buyer would want to offer substantially less money increasing my loss by a significant factor. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waloszek Posted February 8, 2014 Share #52 Posted February 8, 2014 barjohn, I wish you much success in your endeavor - success that other X Vario users will profit from. Best regards, Gerd (now waiting for an e-mail from Leica... No, just kidding...) 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share #53 Posted February 8, 2014 Gerd, Thanks. We'll see what happens. I was very impressed with your blog and the amount of work you went through to document your findings. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted February 10, 2014 Share #54 Posted February 10, 2014 Funny -- the only place I have heard or read about Leica X-Vario AF problems caused purportedly (and I might add speculatively) by "firmware" is in this thread. After reading the various posts I have significant doubts the issue is real. I guess I'll find out for myself when I receive my new X-Vario in a few days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share #55 Posted February 10, 2014 You probably haven't learned to use the search function as there have been other threads going back aways that also discussed this issue. There have been people that have returned their cameras for its AF issue. The evidence that the problem exists has been posted in this thread so it is more than a "purported" problem. The speculation is only on the cause of the problem which appears to be firmware but could be caused by something else such as a weak or intermittent position sensor. Leica fans remind me of the old MG fans. You couldn't pry the steering wheel out of their hands even though you were lucky if you could make a couple of hundred mile trip without some kind of break down. Can you imagine buying a high end vehicle to day and intermittently having to disconnect the battery cable after a sudden freeze up that put you out of commission and then reconnecting it to continue on your way? Leica M 240 owners seem to do that regularly. Personally, I'm not so enamored by Leica to put up with that kind of problem, nor this one either. Leica will unfortunately continue such behavior until enough buyers refuse to tolerate it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted February 10, 2014 Share #56 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) You probably haven't learned to use the search function as there have been other threads going back aways that also discussed this issue. There have been people that have returned their cameras for its AF issue. The evidence that the problem exists has been posted in this thread so it is more than a "purported" problem. The speculation is only on the cause of the problem which appears to be firmware but could be caused by something else such as a weak or intermittent position sensor. Leica fans remind me of the old MG fans. You couldn't pry the steering wheel out of their hands even though you were lucky if you could make a couple of hundred mile trip without some kind of break down. Can you imagine buying a high end vehicle to day and intermittently having to disconnect the battery cable after a sudden freeze up that put you out of commission and then reconnecting it to continue on your way? Leica M 240 owners seem to do that regularly. Personally, I'm not so enamored by Leica to put up with that kind of problem, nor this one either. Leica will unfortunately continue such behavior until enough buyers refuse to tolerate it. John, you should not buy a Leica if you're not in love with it. Only passion would justify tolerating high price tags and some issues. issues are not exclusive to Leica, they come with everything Man makes. Sony freeze and miss focus, I personally returned 3 5D Mark-II and one 5D-Mk-III for an issue that cause the camera to start shooting "alone" without me even touching the shutter release button! this happens every time the camera is facing a white light box. It seems that the Remote control sensor on the 5D-Mk 2 and 3 use the same wavelength as the one those white light bulbs emit!!! "Canon words" I thought the issue would be solved after being reported and have a Japanese canon engineer look at it on my Mk-2 but no, the issue remain the same with the Mk-3 and I go creasy whenever I'm shooting jewellery or small objects inside those white boxes. I'm living with it now. Leica M 240 got a firmware update to solve the freezing issue as a friend of mine told me. so why they tolerate those issue? well, you nailed it. They love their camera and they don't care for glitches that they know are gonna be solved down the road. of course, I'm not saying you should live with your XV AF issue, you either wait for a software update to just return the camera and get you money back. back to the XV AF misbehaviour, I got someone who can report your issue directly to Leica, stay tuned :-) Edited February 10, 2014 by XVarior Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tundraline Posted February 10, 2014 Share #57 Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) You probably haven't learned to use the search function as there have been other threads going back aways that also discussed this issue. There have been people that have returned their cameras for its AF issue. The evidence that the problem exists has been posted in this thread so it is more than a "purported" problem. The speculation is only on the cause of the problem which appears to be firmware but could be caused by something else such as a weak or intermittent position sensor. Leica fans remind me of the old MG fans. You couldn't pry the steering wheel out of their hands even though you were lucky if you could make a couple of hundred mile trip without some kind of break down. Can you imagine buying a high end vehicle to day and intermittently having to disconnect the battery cable after a sudden freeze up that put you out of commission and then reconnecting it to continue on your way? Leica M 240 owners seem to do that regularly. Personally, I'm not so enamored by Leica to put up with that kind of problem, nor this one either. Leica will unfortunately continue such behavior until enough buyers refuse to tolerate it. In a light most favorable to your work and reporting on this issue, I think you have applied an unreasonably harsh standard of perfection to the "AF problem" with the Leica X-Vario. When applied to virtually any other modern camera that employs autofocus, I would bet that this same standard would produce problems or shortcomings similar to those you have pointed out with the X-Vario. Besides your posts and one other person's in this forum, every article and review of the X-Vario that I have read (written by professional phototographers and camera reviewers, I might add) concludes that the AF performance of the X-Vario is very good, even under low-light conditions. I'll test my X-Vario camera when it arrives tomorrow or the next day for the AF problems you say are inherent to the camera, and will keep an open mind as I put my own X-Vario camera through its AF paces. Having said all that, John, it sounds like you should probably return or sell your X-Vario camera and use something other than a Leica. With best regards, Tom Edited February 10, 2014 by tundraline errors in spelling and grammar Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wk Posted February 10, 2014 Share #58 Posted February 10, 2014 I just want to add that I haven't come across any AF issues with my XV. I have missed a few shots but that was because I was trying to focus on a low contrast area. My Xpro-1 is very similar in this aspect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil75 Posted February 10, 2014 Share #59 Posted February 10, 2014 It took me a long way down the road to buy a Leica. Unfortunately my XV at first was not free of issues, but Leica CS solved it the best way a customer could wish. If I am telling you this it is because I am a critical customer. That sort of customer that become a real pain in the a** of a company, if things don't work and the company does not move to solve the issues. Leica gave me the very best experience regarding any CS in the recent years I have had contact with, and there were quite more than a few. Comparing the misfocusing subject, I cannot identify any better or worse behaviour than with any of my previous DSLRs' autofocus. It seems to me a contrast issue, where the AF under certain circumstances might slightly misinterprete distances. To me it has happened very, very rarely but not more than with any other camera before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share #60 Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) In a light most favorable to your work and reporting on this issue, I think you have applied an unreasonably harsh standard of perfection to the "AF problem" with the Leica X-Vario. When applied to virtually any other modern camera that employs autofocus, I would bet that this same standard would produce problems or shortcomings similar to those you have pointed out with the X-Vario. Besides your posts and one other person's in this forum, every article and review of the X-Vario that I have read (written by professional phototographers and camera reviewers, I might add) concludes that the AF performance of the X-Vario is very good, even under low-light conditions. I'll test my X-Vario camera when it arrives tomorrow or the next day for the AF problems you say are inherent to the camera, and will keep an open mind as I put my own X-Vario camera through its AF paces. Having said all that, John, it sounds like you should probably return or sell your X-Vario camera and use something other than a Leica. With best regards, Tom Tom, Perhaps that is true but I don't think so. Lloyd Chambers of Diglloyd did discover and point out the issue in his review ( a paid subscription reviewer). His reviews are probably among the most technically accurate and challenging with photos to illustrate a critique and substantial knowledge both technical and as a photographer behind his critiques. Here is but one quote from him on the subject: "This is one example, but field shots prove out a troubling behavior: the lens is excellent, but less than sharp images are fairly common due to autofocus error." Your statement above that no professional reviewer has identified the problem is incorrect. Sorry. His conclusion on the XV's AF was that despite having a very sharp lens, sharp images require that the AF system perform accurately, precisely and consistently and that was not the case with the XV. I have used and owned a wide range of mirrorless cameras including the Sony A7s and I have not seen this type of error in those cameras where they indicated perfect focus but the focus was off. Some are faster than others and the Leica is in the slow category, but CDAF is usually more accurate than PDAF on s DSLR because the focus plane is measured on teh sensor rather than from an off sensor device. The hybrid sensors with both CDAF and PDAF on the sensor plane are generally quicker and more accurate because final focus adjustment is done using the CDAF system. On loving a camera, there are many things I do love about the camera, such as the build, the appearance, the feel, the manual focus, the zoom lens's sharpness across the frame and zoom range and most but not all of the UI; however, the AF inconsistency is just one of those things that spoils all the rest for me. After the terribly slow AF of the X1 and not much better X2, one would think Lecia would have made getting it right a priority on the XV. They not only failed in how slow it is but in it lack of consistent accuracy. I can't speak to the other X cameras as I didn't purchase them precisely because of their reputation for being slow and Leica's insistent use of dated technology in their slow processor and low resolution LCD. If I just wanted to take images of mostly still objects, the Sigma DP Ms are hard to beat and produce sharper and more detailed images (at lower ISOs only). Edited February 11, 2014 by barjohn Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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