XVarior Posted January 30, 2014 Share #21 Posted January 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I hate to admit that I missed the fact that the AF distance computed by teh camera was different between the JPGs and DNG files of the same image. I did not post all of the images I took, but many were in focus, not just the one I posted. It is more of an issue of unpredictability as to when it will be and when it won't and why the camera says it is when it isn't. If the camera said it could not find AF and failed to turn green and beep, that would be understandable. That is not what happens. I can't conduct any further tests with the camera as it is back in Leica's hands in NJ and I have told them I do not want it back. I want either a replacement that does not have this problem or my money back. I am awaiting Leica's decision. Since we don't have access to their source code or the tools to debug such a problem there is no way for us to figure out what is actually causing the problem. Only Leica engineers have the information to diagnose the issue. As it is this camera is not going to be able to be relied upon to "capture the moment." On the Leica-Panasonic being in the EXIF data, Gerd's assumption is one possibility; however, another possibility is that Panasonic is somehow involved in the manufacture. They may also be the partner in the upcoming Leica "T". Even though the X series says "Made in Germany," no one has seen the manufacturing facility that I know of on this forum and no pictures or video of the X series cameras being assembled (like they do for the M) appear anywhere. So just where is this mysterious German manufacturing plant located and why no pictures or video of assembly and testing? If it isn't a mystery for M cameras why should it be a mystery for X cameras? Food for thought. If I were you, I would leave the camera to leica, get the money back and buy a SONY. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Hi XVarior, Take a look here X Vario AF Issues Follow Up. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
barjohn Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share #22 Posted January 30, 2014 Any particular reason you would buy a SONY other than the fact that DXO just rated it 55mm lens as the highest AF lens they have ever tested? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harvey999999 Posted January 30, 2014 Share #23 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Any particular reason you would buy a SONY other than the fact that DXO just rated it 55mm lens as the highest AF lens they have ever tested? Hmm, well, I've decided to go for the X Vario - with fingers crossed that it won't have those problems John has documented….in the end, the motivating factor was the recent DP Review article which was very critical of the quality of the a7 JPEGs. Here's hoping. Edited January 30, 2014 by harvey999999 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted January 30, 2014 Share #24 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Any particular reason you would buy a SONY other than the fact that DXO just rated it 55mm lens as the highest AF lens they have ever tested? With that much issues, mysterious AF misbehaviour and camera trips back and forth to Leica, any one would have got sick of the situation. personally, I have no reasons to buy another camera other than Leica unless it's for the Company and for specific jobs. The XVario is far superior to anything out there as a package, if I'll ever buy a second camera for personal use that camera is gonna be another Leica, The M Monochrome. Edited January 30, 2014 by XVarior Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
papimuzo Posted January 30, 2014 Share #25 Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Thanks anyway to John for his dedication to his (?) AF problem and analysis. I have (not yet?) met myself this AF failure, neither in bright sun, neither in low light situation. I sometimes get blurry result, but each time it was due to a too slow shutter speed (forgot to realise that with a zoom you have to pay attention to the 1/f rule of thumb...) I'll continue to check this parameter and results. I must say that I don't understand the situation described by John, even more amazing since it concerns a "repaired" camera! Solms should have exchanged it rather than repairing it. Edit: I have always used 1-point AF setting exclusively. Possible explanation why I never had bad focusing? Edited January 30, 2014 by papimuzo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted January 30, 2014 Share #26 Posted January 30, 2014 Thanks anyway to John for his dedication to his (?) AF problem and analysis. I have (not yet?) met myself this AF failure, neither in bright sun, neither in low light situation. I sometimes get blurry result, but each time it was due to a too slow shutter speed (forgot to realise that with a zoom you have to pay attention to the 1/f rule of thumb...)I'll continue to check this parameter and results. I must say that I don't understand the situation described by John, even more amazing since it concerns a "repaired" camera! Solms should have exchanged it rather than repairing it. Edit: I have always used 1-point AF setting exclusively. Possible explanation why I never had bad focusing? That's definitely not a common problem. I've tested 5 different XV's myself and know dozens owners who have no issues at all, at all with the camera. A defective product should be returned and replaced by a new one. Punto. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share #27 Posted January 30, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) While the problem may not exist in every camera, it clearly does exist in more than just my camera. Gerd has illustrated this problem with his camera and s few other caught the issue early and returned their cameras. I have no conclusive idea what causes it but it is not whether one picks 1 point AF or spot AF. I have had it occur with both. It does appear to happen more frequently in bright daylight but I have seen it in indoor high ISO shots too. With the lens, I found even 1/FL could be too low but sometimes I could get significantly lower with concentration. Not; however, when I was shooting quickly. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share #28 Posted February 2, 2014 Leica NJ is shipping me a replacement camera. I will keep you posted on whether this problem exists in the replacement or not once I have it in hand and can test it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
papimuzo Posted February 2, 2014 Share #29 Posted February 2, 2014 Reading the Gerd's article (very interesting BTW), I have the feeling that if firmware is in the game, that it could be a bad recombination of the signals (phase contrast?) coming form several AF points. What was called digital aleas, which ressemble to random. The only 2 bad focus in the examples given with 1-point AF, could be attributed to a simple error (1 bit on the stepping motor?) for one and a small error during the pointing of the camera for the other. This second case brings the absolute necessity to use a tripod for the tests. This are only speculations suggested by Gerd's work. We are waiting for John'info. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waloszek Posted February 2, 2014 Share #30 Posted February 2, 2014 Variations in pointing to the focus target may well play a role in these tests. Therefore, I will repeat the "framework AF test" with a tripod as soon as I find some time. As far as I remember, barjohn did tripod tests - and there were no AF errors... Perhaps he can comment on this himself. Anyway, AF errors happened so often with my camera and I can provoke them under certain conditions that I am convinced that there is an AF issue (or several...) - at least, with my camera. At the moment, I still believe that a firmware issue is involved, meaning that sending the camera for repair or having it exchanged would not change anything (as barjohns repair example showed - let's see what the exchange will bring...) Best regards, Gerd Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 2, 2014 Author Share #31 Posted February 2, 2014 (edited) Gerd, Actually, I was able to get focus errors in my tripod tests (fewer) but at the time, I did not know what the camera was doing when it mis-focused as I didn't have the EXIF data or decoder ring you provided. In some of my mis-focused shots the shutter was at 1/1000 sec. Not likely that a tripod would have made much difference. I haven't posted the landscape shots that mis-focused because it would be too easy to assume the camera focused on something with higher contrast in the scene. In the ones I have posted it should be clear that not only is there nothing else for the camera to focus on, where it actually focused distance wise there was nothing to focus on. Like you, I suspect that it is a firmware issue and that the replacement camera will not fix the issue. Unlike M240 owners that seem content to put up with no fix for their $7K cameras randomly freezing/locking up and misbehaving in other ways, I am not willing to keep a camera that I cannot rely on to perform as it should. It would be one thing if it failed to find focus and gave an indication of such as it will do in low light, but when it confirms that it has focus but in fact it doesn't, this leads to many missed shots and that just isn't acceptable to me in an expensive camera. I don't buy Leica for it value as jewelry. Edited February 2, 2014 by barjohn Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
waloszek Posted February 2, 2014 Share #32 Posted February 2, 2014 barjohn, Thank you for your clarification. I am also glad to read that you agree that the AF issues are caused by buggy firmware. This leaves room for hope that the issues can be fixed... Best regards, Gerd Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share #33 Posted February 5, 2014 I received my replacement camera from Leica yesterday, but this evening was the first chance I had to test the AF. In low light, testing with flash and without and using spot and one point, I took 46 shots and of those 46, 3 were mis-focused. In each case, I waited for the green confirmation and beep before pressing the shutter, The objects were all still and I used a shutter speed of 1/125 to minimize any effects of camera shake. I shot at 50mm and 35mm settings. All of the missed focus shots were at the 50mm setting but that could be coincidence. This weekend I will test in bright daylight so I can use a low ISO and fast shutter speed. If I can, I will also use a tripod but that isn't reflective of how I use the camera in the real world. I am a bit disappointed as I had hoped it would be a specific camera issue and not a firmware issue which I am becoming convinced it the problem. As we all know that have been around this site any length of time Leica is terribly slow at releasing firmware fixes for problems. I am very surprised that there are users that claim never to have seen this problem. A 7% failure rate is high enough that they should have encountered it at least once. I wonder if they just assumed when they got a mis-focused image that it was due to the camera picking a different focus point. However, what I am seeing in these shots is the object I am focusing on is 4' from me and there is a wall behind the object but the EXIF says it focused at 12'. The wall is probably less than a foot behind the object and just painted grey. There is no object at the 12' mark unless it is looking through my walls. Because I took sequences of images, I had an in focus image of the same shot along with an out of focus image so I could see how the EXIF data compared between the accurate shot and the inaccurate shot. By the way, my JPG and DNG EXIF data agreed perfectly on both shots. I will add more info with the daylight tests. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firoze Posted February 5, 2014 Share #34 Posted February 5, 2014 ^ John, thank you for the effort you are putting in evaluating this problem for the benefit of us all. Could you please tell us what Firmware your new XV has? Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 5, 2014 Author Share #35 Posted February 5, 2014 The new camera has the firmware 1.0 version, unlike the repaired unit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
papimuzo Posted February 6, 2014 Share #36 Posted February 6, 2014 I wonder if they just assumed when they got a mis-focused image that it was due to the camera picking a different focus point. When I said that I have never - till now - encountered misfocus, it is probably for the reason you mention. I will more precisely check this focus parameter in the future. Thanks for your dedication in evaluating it. I'm personnaly convinced that it is a software glitch into the focus treatment of the "zones" or into the digital circuit in charge of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted February 6, 2014 Share #37 Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) When I said that I have never - till now - encountered misfocus, it is probably for the reason you mention.I will more precisely check this focus parameter in the future. Thanks for your dedication in evaluating it. I'm personnaly convinced that it is a software glitch into the focus treatment of the "zones" or into the digital circuit in charge of it. Or, we are instead too excited using the camera and getting breathtaking images out of it that some of us simply won't notice AF inaccuracies. we, at ELLE magazine studio, we shoot on tripods, we use strong german strobes for our high-end DSLR / lenses combos to be able to shoot at low ISO and super fast shutter speeds and yet we end up trashing a bunch of pictures for every shoot due to focus missing. So maybe some are more critical about that or less used to it than others. As per john, well, let us know Leica's email so we support your case and send them emails asking to look into the XVario's AF... or we wait until an update is released. I don't know about you guys, but while waiting Leica to bring us the update,I'll be shooting and enjoying every click and every picture that camera take. cheers. Edited February 6, 2014 by XVarior 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted February 6, 2014 Author Share #38 Posted February 6, 2014 Xvario, No one is debating the very nice IQ of the camera and lens, but shooting to capture special moments is very different than shooting created moments in a studio with models that can act and recreate your desired look/moment. The slow AF is probably what contributes to far more mis-focused shots than the apparent firmware issue. I personally would not consider the XV to be the right tool for that scenario even though it may produce pleasing files when it does hit. I wouldn't consider it the right tool because time is money in that environment and every retake costs money for model time, make-up artist, assistants, studio use, lighting equipment use, etc. This is not to say that it can't be done as you could do it with a purely MF camera like the M240 but that still would not make it the right tool. However, if you are comfortable with it as your tool and time/cost is not an issue for you then it is the right tool for you. Once I confirm the issue in daylight shooting, I will contact Leica again to see what can be done. I fear that due to poor sales they may not be willing to invest any more money on this camera to address any issues or improvements and this could become the next R. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
XVarior Posted February 6, 2014 Share #39 Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) Xvario,No one is debating the very nice IQ of the camera and lens, but shooting to capture special moments is very different than shooting created moments in a studio with models that can act and recreate your desired look/moment. The slow AF is probably what contributes to far more mis-focused shots than the apparent firmware issue. I personally would not consider the XV to be the right tool for that scenario even though it may produce pleasing files when it does hit. I wouldn't consider it the right tool because time is money in that environment and every retake costs money for model time, make-up artist, assistants, studio use, lighting equipment use, etc. This is not to say that it can't be done as you could do it with a purely MF camera like the M240 but that still would not make it the right tool. However, if you are comfortable with it as your tool and time/cost is not an issue for you then it is the right tool for you. Once I confirm the issue in daylight shooting, I will contact Leica again to see what can be done. I fear that due to poor sales they may not be willing to invest any more money on this camera to address any issues or improvements and this could become the next R. You got me wrong John. 1st, I'm not using the XV in the studio. I said I'm using the DSLRs with pro lenses and we end up always trashing pictures for miss-focus issue. so what I'm saying is that even Pro bulky DSLRs miss focus and models in studio are not dancing they are posing, calmly and on the same spot. shutter speeds are between 1/500 and above... as per time is money, well, you're right, and it's the DSLR outcome that consume huge amount of time in order to get the files corrected and visually appealing, unlike the XVarior's files which are outstanding right out the camera in both JPG and DNG format. Poor Sales? do you have proof to support that. Actually the opposite is true. now that real world reviews are all over the net, sales are kicking in and the camera is selling very well, more than any other new Leica model out there. go ask again your dealer and see. My dealer's inventory is sold out ahead of delivery, always. Leica will bring an update if it's necessary, if it's not, and the camera is flawless then in that case only we are not gonna see that update. While you waits for a fix, why don't you just enjoy the time your camera focuses and show us some nice images as a meanwhile intertwinement treat? I mean, don't you feel like going out, shooting, and enjoying your camera or is it just for laboratory examination only? here's one for relaxation ;-) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 6, 2014 by XVarior 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/221061-x-vario-af-issues-follow-up/?do=findComment&comment=2526938'>More sharing options...
wizard Posted February 6, 2014 Share #40 Posted February 6, 2014 I have been reading this discussion, and what strikes me is the following: If the Xvario mis-focuses at times, and apparently by not just a small margin, wouldn't you be able to immediately tell by looking at the screen? And by immediately I mean BEFORE you fully press the shutter button? And if so, wouldn't an easy solution be to simply release and repress the shutter button to force the camera to refocus? Still, it seems odd that the camera indicates correct focus when the opposite is true. Are you operating with a fixed AF field, e.g. in the center of the image? Or does the Xvario "select" the AF field according to its desire (I hate that feature and switch it off first thing whenever I get a new camera). Andy 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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