dgc Posted January 3, 2014 Share #1 Â Posted January 3, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am looking at some ultra wide angle lenses between 15mm and 21mm and I am considering, in addition to the Leica Super Elmar series, Zeiss and Voigtlander for my M and M7. I already have the Leica 28mm f2.8. Â I have no experience with Zeiss and Voigtlander and I would like to hear if anybody can summarise the differences in the quality of the glass between Leica and Zeiss & Voigtlander and the limitations of a particular lens for, say, landscape and architecture. Â Is the best lens simply the most expensive or do the Zeiss / Voigtlander lenses have any 'special' qualities ? Â I am particularly interested in the Zeiss 18mm f4 and 21mm f4.5. Any comments are welcome. Â Thanks, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 Hi dgc, Take a look here Ultra Wide Angles 15-21mm ?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
tobey bilek Posted January 3, 2014 Share #2 Â Posted January 3, 2014 If you do a search, you will find opinions/photos on the 21 super elmar, 4.5 Zeiss and the CV. Â I recall people not being not happy with 4.5 Biogon on digital and wish they had the 2.8 Â I have a 28 from 1985 and 21 pre ASPH from the same. They work satisfactorily on my M8& M9. Â My 12 and 15 CV work on the M9 if I use corner fix to touch up, but they are not as sharp as the Leica lenses. They are screw mt versions so an adapter is required. I bought them from Jinfinance on ebay and coded them as 21 pre asph. They now come in bayonet with filter threads, much more expensive. I consider the threads on CV lenses same as putting lipstick on a pig. However when I bought mine, it was the day of introduction and I was using film where they worked better. Digital really shows up bad lenses. Â I would not buy another CV lens. My 25 has soft corners starting 1/3 out and decentering. Others have had better luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepiareverb Posted January 3, 2014 Share #3 Â Posted January 3, 2014 The ZM 21/2.8 is less than ideal on the MP/M7 when using its hood. At close focus distances (as precision becomes more important) the hood blocks a good deal to all of the rangefinder patch. Nitpicky, but I found it happened too often. I went with the Elmarit-ASPH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rirakuma Posted January 3, 2014 Share #4 Â Posted January 3, 2014 I've read many times that the 18/4 is a stellar performer. If I was interested in an 18mm that's what I would most likely get. I'm sure the 18SEM is great as well but its almost triple the cost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicakillen Posted January 3, 2014 Share #5  Posted January 3, 2014 I find the Voigtländer 15/4,5 to be very sharp, a superb lens, sometimes you have to correct the red corners, but that is easy. /Anders http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/landscape-travel/315212-stockholm.html#post2594132 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marc G. Posted January 3, 2014 Share #6 Â Posted January 3, 2014 Get the 21/1.8 Ultron from Voigtlander if you consider 21mm. It's sharp, got no visible distortion (reports talk about 0.2% which is nothing) and is a large aperture ultra wide with stunning performance and a bargain comparing it to the 21 Summilux. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted January 3, 2014 Share #7 Â Posted January 3, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Ultra wide angles from 12-21 require lots of practice to master. A 12 is very different from a 15 and from a 21. Â Overcome the challenges of managing perspectives and the lens can be a delight. Â Suggest you pick one, say a 21 (may be the easiest), try it out before committing to a purchase decision. If budget is a constraint the CV 21 f/4 could be a good starting point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted January 3, 2014 Share #8  Posted January 3, 2014  I am particularly interested in the Zeiss 18mm f4 and 21mm f4.5. Any comments are welcome.  Thanks, David  David, can you state what camera you intend to use above lenses.  Both are good with film M cameras as all current ZM lenses were originally designed for film shooting.  ZM 21mm f4.5 is excellent lens but it will produce colour cast corners when used on digital M camera - which can be fixed in post process. My copy is permanently attached to my MP.  I never used ZM 18mm f4 but apparently it is very good on digital M camera, there are numerous threads/posts on LUF where this is demonstrated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgc Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share #9 Â Posted January 3, 2014 I originally bought into the Leica M system (Mladen - M7 and M240; 50/f2, 28/f2.8) for the quality of the glass and I am hesitant to use other lenses for no other reason than I may be compromising the quality of the M system. Nevertheless, the cost/ benefit of solely using Leica does not always make sense; especially the number of occasions I would require an ultra wide lens. Â From a further search it is noticeable that the 18mm SEM is highly regarded if a little difficult to master (as Ramchand pointed out), and the Voigtlander had mixed reports (see Tobey, Anders and Marc above). Â The Zeiss appears to perform very well (Mladen, rirakuma), but what makes it a 'stellar' performer ? Is cost taken into account when considering the performance? Â There is also the consideration if 21mm is too close to my 28mm, but another thread indicates that at wider angles this difference is effectively bigger than, say, 28 to 35mm - is this true? Â Interesting about the size of the hood on the 21mm (sepiareverb). I have just started to use Lee Seven5 filter system and find that annoying with the rangefinder, but effective. Â Thanks again, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marc G. Posted January 3, 2014 Share #10 Â Posted January 3, 2014 As far as I know no one else was referring to the Voigtlander 21mm f/1.8 Ultron which is quite a new lens (announced at Photokina 2012). This 21mm is both mechanically and optically superb. If you might need the 21 for indoor shots, low light work or need subject separation you should definitely consider it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rirakuma Posted January 3, 2014 Share #11  Posted January 3, 2014 I originally bought into the Leica M system (Mladen - M7 and M240; 50/f2, 28/f2.8) for the quality of the glass and I am hesitant to use other lenses for no other reason than I may be compromising the quality of the M system. Nevertheless, the cost/ benefit of solely using Leica does not always make sense; especially the number of occasions I would require an ultra wide lens. From a further search it is noticeable that the 18mm SEM is highly regarded if a little difficult to master (as Ramchand pointed out), and the Voigtlander had mixed reports (see Tobey, Anders and Marc above).  The Zeiss appears to perform very well (Mladen, rirakuma), but what makes it a 'stellar' performer ? Is cost taken into account when considering the performance?  There is also the consideration if 21mm is too close to my 28mm, but another thread indicates that at wider angles this difference is effectively bigger than, say, 28 to 35mm - is this true?  Interesting about the size of the hood on the 21mm (sepiareverb). I have just started to use Lee Seven5 filter system and find that annoying with the rangefinder, but effective.  Thanks again, David  There's a huge difference between 21mm and 28mm. That being said there's even greater difference on focal lengths below them. If you're unsure about which focal length you're after its probably a good idea to do a bit more research then hunt for a lens after you've settled on a focal length. The 18/4 is meant to be a stellar performer in terms of sharpness. It also has that Zeiss pop commonly seen on the ZF/ZE version. Compared to the 18SEM I would imagine the SEM winning by a slight margin in terms of sharpness and possibly a more attractive colour palette. Best of luck with your hunt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 3, 2014 Share #12 Â Posted January 3, 2014 I love my 18 SEM. Stellar preformed as is the 21 SEM. Â Another excellent corner to corner performer on the M240 is the R 15/2.8. I have posted some shots with this lens under a thread Jaap started on R lenses on the M240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgc Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share #13 Â Posted January 4, 2014 Although, I started this post with the intentions of finding a non-Leica lens all evidence suggests I may well continue with Leica, but probably a second hand 18 or 21mm SEM. But it is early days and further research is necessary. The problem with this sort of post is that it is subjective as many people have a different opinion of the same lens, however, the wealth of experience and knowledge of members cannot be discounted and a search of their websites will help the research process. One gripe though ... I do wish that ALL (as some do) contributors on the Photo Forums would give their lens and, where applicable, film type. It would help us less experienced photographers understand focal lengths and perspectives much better, as well as composition and light ! Â Thanks again, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgc Posted January 4, 2014 Author Share #14 Â Posted January 4, 2014 Another excellent corner to corner performer on the M240 is the R 15/2.8. I have posted some shots with this lens under a thread Jaap started on R lenses on the M240. Â Algrove, please don't bring another system into the equation !!! Leica already have me hooked with the M system, I do not want another addiction ! My wife is still to find out that my M240 and M7 are two different cameras - I think my guilty secrets would no longer stay secret with bigger lenses. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveclem Posted January 4, 2014 Share #15 Â Posted January 4, 2014 My wife is still to find out that my M240 and M7 are two different cameras Excellent ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted January 4, 2014 Share #16 Â Posted January 4, 2014 Another excellent corner to corner performer on the M240 is the R 15/2.8. I have posted some shots with this lens under a thread Jaap started on R lenses on the M240. Â Algrove, please don't bring another system into the equation !!! Leica already have me hooked with the M system, I do not want another addiction ! My wife is still to find out that my M240 and M7 are two different cameras - I think my guilty secrets would no longer stay secret with bigger lenses. Thanks. Â R lenses now are not another system, but an extension of the lenses available and useable on the M240. I have no R body just R lenses that I use regularly on my M240's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard Posted January 4, 2014 Share #17 Â Posted January 4, 2014 I am regularly happy with the results from my Voigtlander 15mm Super Heliar. I find its 0.5m min focus distance exceptionally useful as I shoot a lot of people. Here are some examples. Oddly, I seem to suffer less from the 'red edge' issue many complain of. No idea why. Â Hot Rod Discovery | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Happy Days | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Do I Have To Walk All The Way? | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Water Boy | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Â However... get the angles wrong with this focal length and you'll be most disappointed with the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicakillen Posted January 4, 2014 Share #18  Posted January 4, 2014 I am regularly happy with the results from my Voigtlander 15mm Super Heliar. I find its 0.5m min focus distance exceptionally useful as I shoot a lot of people. Here are some examples. Oddly, I seem to suffer less from the 'red edge' issue many complain of. No idea why. Hot Rod Discovery | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Happy Days | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Do I Have To Walk All The Way? | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Water Boy | Flickr - Photo Sharing!  However... get the angles wrong with this focal length and you'll be most disappointed with the results. I understand why you don't have these red edge problems - you take really good shots and don¨t focus on the technical issues!!! Very good images!! I share the same experience - the 15 mm Heliar is very good!!  Thanks, /Anders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirekti Posted January 4, 2014 Share #19 Â Posted January 4, 2014 Happy Days | Flickr - Photo Sharing! Â Great!!! Â After seeing so many great shots, I became indecisive what combination to take to complete my setup. At the moment I have 35FLE, 75APO, and 135APO. I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer. I wouldn't like to spend too much, but on the other hand wouldn't like to feel sorry and have "bad" lens. My ideas were: Â CV12 + 21SEM - I read so many good things about 21SEM, it's hard to forget this lens exists. 12mm... just to wrap it up. :-) CV15 + 24 Elmar - similar to 21SEM, I'd be more comfortable with 24 than 21, but the idea was to go wider. CV12 + 21 Ultron - quite afordable, but a bit bigger. WATE - maybe the best solution i.e. one lens that covers a lot, but by far most expencive. Only CV15, and keep it cool, I wouldn't use wide angle so much after all, and one can mount only one lens at the time (I already have three). Â I like this thread, and the way it plays with my thoughts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgc Posted January 5, 2014 Author Share #20  Posted January 5, 2014 Anders/ Gerard, thanks. The CV 15mm Heliar, my first non-Leica consideration for an ultra wide, has just nudged ahead of the 18mm SEM ! The sharpness and colour is excellent, and just being very good photographs show what can be achieved with a moderately priced lens (in Leica cost terms). The Zeiss and SEM look equally as sharp on the few links I have found.  The red edge issue appears to have been rectified with the firmware update, albeit from a quick search on this forum. Or is this still a problem ?  Are there any comments/ peculiarities with the CV15mm when using a 35mm film camera (i.e. my M7) ? I note that ffordes state on their website that 'the incredible 110° diagonal angle of view on good old 35mm film makes most wide angle lenses on digital cameras look a bit lacklustre.' I am not quite sure what this means and whether it is just a 'general' comment.  David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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