sail222 Posted December 22, 2013 Share #1 Posted December 22, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am obsessed with Leica items that were painted black. I like this lens ..... any advise or thoughts from the professionals. Thanks Leica Summicron M 5cm F2 Black Very RARE M3 M2 M4 M6 M7 M8 M9 | eBay Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 22, 2013 Posted December 22, 2013 Hi sail222, Take a look here Black Summicron Collapsible. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
andym911 Posted December 22, 2013 Share #2 Posted December 22, 2013 didn't know this lens was ever made in black….am sure someone with more knowledge will comment . andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted December 22, 2013 I have been doing some research and looks like it was special order only in black. Westlicht sold one a few years back (see photo) 96: LEICA: M3 black paint : Lot 96 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted December 22, 2013 Share #4 Posted December 22, 2013 Special order indeed! May be a Xmas order ? Best wishes to all ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 22, 2013 Share #5 Posted December 22, 2013 Almost all the usual authors (Lager, Laney etc...) do report those rare items, which hadn't a specific code, thus confirming that were "finished-to-order" ; a nice item indeed, even if, imho, the black Elmars are more "official" and this make them even more interesting for collectors. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted December 23, 2013 Author Share #6 Posted December 23, 2013 Ok ... so here is my newb question of the week. Can the Black Summicron Collapsible that's on ebay be sourced at all? I mean is there any way to track when the special order was placed or the details of the order. Basically is there any way to verify if it was actually painted by Leica for a special order? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 23, 2013 Share #7 Posted December 23, 2013 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Well... the ebay listing does show a Leitz USA warranty card, which bears the serial number of the lens and the "BL" acronym (BLack ? Black Laquer ?)... it looks original... but I am not an expert about the Leitz papers of the era... ; the seller declares to be a member of LHSA, a very respectable well known concern... : my conclusion is that if all of this is a fake, it's very well done... even too much for such a business. Only things that look a bit odd to me : - the description "Summicron M" ... any decent Leiciste knows that this is a Summicron, period: Summicron M is another and much later lens. - the specification "M3 M2 M4 M6 M7 M8 M9" : unusefully long... but, to be pedantic, anyway an incomplete list... a people well into the Leica world typically would simply specify "M mount" "M version" or similar. - the base price... I don't know ebay rules and/or habits, but it's ridicolously low : such a lens, original, is roughly in a 50x price range or even more. Edited December 23, 2013 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 23, 2013 Share #8 Posted December 23, 2013 The quality of wear on the paint says to me it is original, the thing most difficult to fake are the years of polishing and tiny random nicks and faults. I just question that the seller can't decide if they are an 'I' or a 'we'? There is something very 'cut and paste' about the text. Some questions need to be asked to gauge the seller. Steve 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted December 23, 2013 Share #9 Posted December 23, 2013 - the base price... I don't know ebay rules and/or habits, but it's ridicolously low : such a lens, original, is roughly in a 50x price range or even more. Luigi, the starting price is a factor to be used in the amout of fees the seller will due to Ebay. so when you have a great piece for sale you are sure to reach some amount of money about. Auguri per de le Buone Feste 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 23, 2013 Share #10 Posted December 23, 2013 Luigi,the starting price is a factor to be used in the amout of fees the seller will due to Ebay. so when you have a great piece for sale you are sure to reach some amount of money about. Auguri per de le Buone Feste Thanks... I thought of something similar... Auguri anche a Te e Signora !!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2013 Share #11 Posted December 23, 2013 ... If this black collapsible Summicron really should be such a rare lens or even a prototype, should a sale on Ebay then ever taken to be serious? A collector, who is a member of the LHSA, might know the relevant auction houses, at least in London and Vienna. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sail222 Posted December 23, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted December 23, 2013 If this black collapsible Summicron really should be such a rare lens or even a prototype, should a sale on Ebay then ever taken to be serious?A collector, who is a member of the LHSA, might know the relevant auction houses, at least in London and Vienna. So mnutzer, are you saying that rare Leica items that end up on eBay are not to be taken seriously, or that the seller has made a poor choice by selling on ebay. Sounds like your saying that .... "if its on eBay .... then there is something wrong" Just clarifying .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 23, 2013 Share #13 Posted December 23, 2013 This lens will be cheap compared to some of the things sold on Ebay, so some reality is needed as regards the paranoid myth that everybody is out to rip everybody else off if its sold on Ebay. As with ANY auction, it is wise to do your own investigating and assess the facts, it doesn't matter if its Christie's or Ebay, they both just sell stuff for a fee. Both offer buyer protection, but sometimes sellers need protection as well. I'd bet this lens has received the usual scam offers and deals but they will represent a tiny minority of people looking at the auction. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2013 Share #14 Posted December 23, 2013 So mnutzer, are you saying that rare Leica items that end up on eBay are not to be taken seriously, or that the seller has made a poor choice by selling on ebay. Sounds like your saying that .... "if its on eBay .... then there is something wrong" Just clarifying .... Valuable items I buy on ebay only from stores with money back guarantee; of individuals at best even for cash on collection at a safe place. Reputable auction houses could provide a higher guarantee of originality; in cases of doubt, expertises should be created by proven experts. After reading too many attempted frauds, especially in connection with the brand name Leica, I would say, that if valuable items are auctioned only on Ebay, there could rather something be wrong. But that must any check himself, how much personal play money is available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lamefrog Posted December 23, 2013 Share #15 Posted December 23, 2013 Interesting , I'm in Bangkok and on the streets today I spotted what i thought looked like a collapsible cron ... but black . I was going to look it up to see if such a beast actually existed .. and tonight this thread Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted December 23, 2013 Share #16 Posted December 23, 2013 Valuable items I buy on ebay only from stores with money back guarantee; of individuals at best even for cash on collection at a safe place.) If you pay cash for eBay purchases you remove all protection that eBay offers! If you pay through PayPal or a credit card you have all the protection a credit card company offers, which is considerable. Cash, who can prove you paid cash? Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 23, 2013 Share #17 Posted December 23, 2013 .. Cash, who can prove you paid cash? The private seller can check my cash when we both go to a bank of his choice. At the same place I can check carefully before giving the money to him, whether the Leica article has the qualities described on Ebay. If not, I've just wasted the miles driven and the time spent, which is why I make such purchases only in my local area. But what do you think about such a description of another Summicron coll., seen on Ebay: "NEARLY NEW COLLABSIBLE THORIUM SUMMICRON f2 / 5cm 50mm built in late summer 1952 in these years prototypes had no desciption like later lenses . But because of the ending with two zero numbers it is most probably that something was changed in this lens ,because before 1953 the made a lot of experimental Summicrons using rare earth materiels . This lens is in a nearMINT ,exellent condition . NO DUST NO SCRATCHES NO FOG NO HAZE SMOOTH TO COLLABS + SMOOTH TO FOCUS which is normal for a nearly new lens VALUE 2000 Euros ? NO LENS LIKE THIS IN THIS OUTSTANDING CONDITION ON THE MARKET WORLDWIDE . I have no time to give it to an international auction . UNIQUE first Summcron ,before the official sale started in 1953 SERIALNUMBER 102XXX00 ,see photo , Leica Meister Hamburg is offering a more earlier Summicron for 2450 Euros . My Summicron is in BETTER CONDITION i made ULTRA Sharp Photos ,when you have this lens in your hands it look like new the thorium lenses dont have the problem with the frontglassCRATCHES in my opinion ,this lens is same as sharp as the DR dual range. No tester in the internet ever used a lens like this or the later serial without scratches !!!!! This lens is SLIGHTLY radioactive ,brown lenses + coating when looking in strong light i never tested it . Happy bidding. . This is a NEVER to find again lens ,nearly new !!!! delivered with caps I made photos to compare this lens and the serialtyp . This Thorium lens is much stronger in contrast and the BLACK is really STRONG compare to the flare not really black serialtyp on digital photo images . There is nothing on images on digital found on google in the internet to show how outstanding this Thorium lens is. I made better images with this lens than with any other recently ,new built Leica M lenses." Leica M Summicron 50mm Prototyp oder Vorserie SerNr.10..00 Bj 1952 MINTY A- cond | eBay Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted December 23, 2013 Share #18 Posted December 23, 2013 Christie's in London held their last dedicated camera auction in 2007. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_livsey Posted December 23, 2013 Share #19 Posted December 23, 2013 Third Man Cameras Seller of original item under discussion? Coincidence ? Camera Parts [Archive] - Powder Coating | Message Board and Forum Community For Powder Coating and Ceramic Coating CERAKOTE Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted December 24, 2013 Share #20 Posted December 24, 2013 (edited) If this black collapsible Summicron really should be such a rare lens or even a prototype, should a sale on Ebay then ever taken to be serious?A collector, who is a member of the LHSA, might know the relevant auction houses, at least in London and Vienna. This is a doubt I have too, but I really am NOT in the "ebay ecosystem" so things that look odd to me can be normal for others... my view is that the well known specialized auction houses (and Vienna at the top, probably) have a "selling power" that exceeds the "reaching power" of ebay, but they ask also higher fees (I think) and do pretend sureness for what they sell , expecially for rare items : in this case, much of the originality is tied to the warranty card (the item in itself can surely be a DIY paintjob ...good quotation, Chris ) , on which I have not any valuable opinion (can it be faked from an old original ? probably... old typewriters abound; is it easy to find an original card, blank ? Dunno ; is an old original, written, easy to be erased ? Dunno) Starting from the point that this item, if original, is really rare and valuable, I can only think of what I would do in case I have it and want to sell : - Contact Peter Coeln or another of the same league, provide detailed pictures, story behind etc... - Depending on the answers, in case I would even send the item to them... with a sure carrier... - Depending on the further answers, I could decide if * Negotiate with them a base price for the next auction, and related details * (unprobable) accept a direct cash offer from them, if they do one * Get back to me the item - go on ebay But repeat, that's MY mood (a people who never sold anything on ebay) : I have the feel that if I start with an attempt on ebay, just to probe the market, I am, in a certain sense, "burnt out" for a second chance with auctioners , who surely keep record of the Big Auction Site... the inverse approach seems more reasonable to me, counting on the discretion of professional sellers. Anyway... at the current offfer (1525 US$) I would surely buy it, knowing to afford a certain risk...(after all, it's anyway a nice Summicron) ; at double of it or above, I surely won't buy it. Edited December 24, 2013 by luigi bertolotti 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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