algrove Posted December 21, 2013 Share #21 Â Posted December 21, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have repeatedly said before, if one looks at the bulletin board a little straight back on the left when walking into the showroom, you will see all the new hires are under 25 with little or no experience and many I am told work a few years to build up their CV and they are off for greener pastures. Â If they are putting any of those new workers on lens QC, you will get exactly what you've got with very few exceptions. Â Sure every company needs new blood, but they should not get involved in lens assembly and testing before 5 years. This is all getting out of control at Leica. QC/QA I do not care what it is called is severely lacking at Leica these days. For me, no more buying of new products until the customers' beta testing is about complete. Â The sad part of it is that this lens purchase is not "early adopting", but the purchase of a very expensive and special lens that has been in production for many years now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 21, 2013 Posted December 21, 2013 Hi algrove, Take a look here Bad Nocti - Mr Magoo still alive and working at Leica. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
earleygallery Posted December 21, 2013 Share #22 Â Posted December 21, 2013 How annoying. I bet the lens came with a nice little hand signed card too, saying that the lens had been personally checked as 100% perfect, which is like rubbing salt in the wound! Â I've commented in another thread about other 'quality' issues at Leica that something is seriously wrong with their procedures to allow so many cock-ups to happen. When a large part of your branding is quality, you must deliver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share #23  Posted December 21, 2013 How annoying. I bet the lens came with a nice little hand signed card too, saying that the lens had been personally checked as 100% perfect, which is like rubbing salt in the wound! I've commented in another thread about other 'quality' issues at Leica that something is seriously wrong with their procedures to allow so many cock-ups to happen. When a large part of your branding is quality, you must deliver.  James,  The signature should have been a clue.  Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/218772-bad-nocti-mr-magoo-still-alive-and-working-at-leica/?do=findComment&comment=2492315'>More sharing options...
Guest Emile de Leon Posted December 21, 2013 Share #24 Â Posted December 21, 2013 He is driving to work right now...down to the Leica factory...to make your new Noctilux...or M240..whatever he feels like makin...for today... Or maybe he will look at the stack of faulty cameras..needing repairs being practically brand new cameras..that need fixin on the shelf..if he feels ...like it.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted December 21, 2013 Share #25 Â Posted December 21, 2013 Wilson The person/institution, who/that is responsible is your dealer, if this lens is brand new. Cannot you give it back to them? I wonder, that they seem to ignore you. Â Also, this Mrs. A is a person. I have never spread names/telephon numbers of persons to the customers. Who knows, if this is the right person (still). There is a service of Leica, that is responsible. Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted December 21, 2013 Share #26 Â Posted December 21, 2013 Between the 50 APO woes, and now the Noctilux, it's refreshing to know that Leica doesn't discriminate based on price when it comes to QC. One size mis-fits all. Â Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 21, 2013 Author Share #27  Posted December 21, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) WilsonThe person/institution, who/that is responsible is your dealer, if this lens is brand new. Cannot you give it back to them? I wonder, that they seem to ignore you.  Also, this Mrs. A is a person. I have never spread names/telephon numbers of persons to the customers. Who knows, if this is the right person (still). There is a service of Leica, that is responsible. Jan  Mrs. A is very well known and held in high regard in this forum and all of us long term Leica users (over 50 years in my case) know that if there is a problem, she is the “go to “ person at Leica to sort it. This is not news to forum members.  The dealer does not have another new lens, as the lens I got, had only come from Leica on the morning I bought it. I was all set to get that dealer’s demo/display lens (I wish I had now) and it was due to be sent to me. Just before they were due to post the demo lens, the dealer made me a very attractive offer to upgrade to the newly arrived lens.  Leica service should be able to sort this out far quicker for me than the dealer, who would have to go back to Leica in any case. As I am registered on the Leica Professional photographer scheme, I intend to take advantage of it. That is the whole purpose of the scheme.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huckles Posted December 21, 2013 Share #28 Â Posted December 21, 2013 Sadly and dissapointingly, this in not an isolated incident... Â My brand new M9P and Noct was back focussing by ALOT when I first received it. Leica Australia replaced it, but that took a month. Â My M240 and Noct had a 6 bit coding issue which required it to go back to Solms (too just over 2 months) to get back. Â On an item of this expense this is totally unacceptable if you were a 'normal' enthusiast. Being a professional wedding photographer this was just to insane. Very very poor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernMan Posted December 22, 2013 Share #29 Â Posted December 22, 2013 It is, of course, just f-ing ridiculous -- to the non-afficanados anyway. The inescapable reality appears to be that its just part of the (perhaps exorbitant) costs associated with this rarified photographic system (indeed, community) that's staples include sub f1.0 50mm German manufactured lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 22, 2013 Share #30 Â Posted December 22, 2013 Too much complacency IMO. Things like M8's IR problem or 50 apo's CVF would not happen othewise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted December 22, 2013 Share #31  Posted December 22, 2013 As I am registered on the Leica Professional photographer scheme, I intend to take advantage of it. That is the whole purpose of the scheme.Wilson  I think, that could help. Good luck to you.  Part of the problem is that the customers can check now, what QA does. You did not specify, how much the lens is off. Would interest me. I bought a cheap adapter Minolta MD to Leica M. This adapter is far off. But having a LV camera, it does not bother me. Infinity is not at the end of the distance scale, I have to live with that.  Canikons don´t have rangefinders and distance scales. That ist cheaper and gives no complaints. Leica has - as an instrument maker - chosen for the long way (to heaven?). Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share #32  Posted December 22, 2013 Jan,  I would estimate it is around a meter off at approx 20 meters, plenty for it to be very soft focus wide open. Of course I can use the EVF and I do all the time when I am using my R and Zeiss Contax lenses but it would be a problem when I use it on my M9 or film M’s. Given the price and the criticality of focus this lens should at least be double and maybe triple checked before it leaves the factory. It is so easy now with the M240.  This is the second Noctilux that I have had this problem with. The type 11822 one I had, was sent by the first owner for a full service and coding before he sold it to me (it was part of the agreement). When I got it back, it was misfocusing by around 1.5M at 10M, which it certainly was not doing before the service. It needed another trip to Solms before it was correct. It took all of 30 seconds to know it was wrong.  You begin to wonder if their calibration tools/rigs are wrong and need repair.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted December 22, 2013 Share #33 Â Posted December 22, 2013 Wilson, Â I'm sure you've seen the light leak thread by now - you might like to ask Leica to sen you a free girls hair band when they repair your lens so that you don't also suffer from light leaks!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted December 22, 2013 Share #34 Â Posted December 22, 2013 It is, of course, just f-ing ridiculous -- to the non-afficanados anyway. The inescapable reality appears to be that its just part of the (perhaps exorbitant) costs associated with this rarified photographic system (indeed, community) that's staples include sub f1.0 50mm German manufactured lenses. Â Nonsense. Â To assume that quality issues are part and parcel to the manufacture and sale of expensive objects is hardly reality. If this is happening it is because Leica is screwing up; not because such events are a norm in commerce, rarified or otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted December 22, 2013 Share #35 Â Posted December 22, 2013 I have repeatedly said before, if one looks at the bulletin board a little straight back on the left when walking into the showroom, you will see all the new hires are under 25 with little or no experience and many I am told work a few years to build up their CV and they are off for greener pastures. Â I remember that being common in stereo stores. The kids would (sort of) work long enough to get that super system, with their discount of course, and then they'd quit. Leica should hire some not-so-twenty-somethings. People with a developed work ethic. There's a lot of case studies out there clearly demonstrating the benefits of hiring "older" people versus the young. Leica doesn't give tours of the shops so there's no need for the back the back of the house look all hipster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted December 22, 2013 Share #36  Posted December 22, 2013 Mark, I suspect I too will end up mainly focusing with the EVF but I want the lens to have a correct RF as well, given the eye-watering price. It beats me that this lens got out of the door, it is so obviously wrong. I have now checked my M240 with another few lenses and it is spot on with all of them, even my old Summicron-C.  Wilson  Wilson ......... I'm not sure I would rely on 20m........  I had similar problems with my 75/2 and was about to send it back but decided to re-check my rangefinder calibration......  The near setting for these lenses is the bu**er to get right ..... But the infinity adjustment has a fair bit of leeway ...... It could be that what is 'right' for the noctilux would have your other lenses still within the 'in focus' range at infinity.  Although infinity changes can put out the near adjustment, there is a surprising amount of adjustment available before this occurs to a noticeable extent.  When I'd adjusted the infinity setting to be ok for my 75/2 and noctilux and made some minor adjustments to the near setting all my lenses are now spot on.  Although I have found focus peaking to be invaluable for checking calibration at near I have never relied on it for distance ......... Rangefinder coincidence at infinity is the only accurate measure of this.  If the rangefinder on the Noctilux is ok at infinity and the Focus peaking and rangefinder coincide at 1m then there is something else amiss ...... Although there is a floating element it only really comes into play at near distance..... And I would have thought 20m is far for misalignment of this to cause an issue... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted December 22, 2013 Share #37 Â Posted December 22, 2013 IF Leica could ever get its act together QA wise, they could make more profit on what they do or at least delay price increases if they even care about that. The only way it seems for them to start getting their act together is if most of us (their we will buy anything they produce no matter how good it is QA wise) start to balk at buying any more product until they can prove to us they are capable of improving much of what they produce today, the first time out of the box instead of second or third tries at correcting their own self-made mistakes.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 22, 2013 Author Share #38  Posted December 22, 2013 Wilson ......... I'm not sure I would rely on 20m........ I had similar problems with my 75/2 and was about to send it back but decided to re-check my rangefinder calibration......  The near setting for these lenses is the bu**er to get right ..... But the infinity adjustment has a fair bit of leeway ...... It could be that what is 'right' for the noctilux would have your other lenses still within the 'in focus' range at infinity.  Although infinity changes can put out the near adjustment, there is a surprising amount of adjustment available before this occurs to a noticeable extent.  When I'd adjusted the infinity setting to be ok for my 75/2 and noctilux and made some minor adjustments to the near setting all my lenses are now spot on.  Although I have found focus peaking to be invaluable for checking calibration at near I have never relied on it for distance ......... Rangefinder coincidence at infinity is the only accurate measure of this.  If the rangefinder on the Noctilux is ok at infinity and the Focus peaking and rangefinder coincide at 1m then there is something else amiss ...... Although there is a floating element it only really comes into play at near distance..... And I would have thought 20m is far for misalignment of this to cause an issue...  There are I believe at least two different adjustments on the Noctilux. The position of the main optical cell relative to the rangefinder cam and then the positioning of the sleeve that operates the floating element relative to the main optical cell.  The RF of the Noctilux appears to be out at all distances relative to optical focus and focus peaking, from 1.5 meters out to 35 meters. My other lenses are pretty much spot on at all distances and my 90 Elmarit-M and 50 Planar were set up by Malcolm Taylor on his optical bench just a few days ago, and I would be very surprised if they were not near perfect. Unlike my older M’s there seems very little backlash on the improved M240 rangefinder, so it seems to make little difference whether you come up or down to a focus. I have had other lenses where the lens was in focus at infinity but got worse as the distance got less. The Noctilux seems to be out consistently by a similar proportion at all distances. I therefore think it is simply that the whole optical cell is wrongly positioned relative to the RF cam.  It is very cloudy at the moment so I cannot check infinity using the edge of the moon or a planet but I did it not very long ago using my three longer lenses and it was just fine and matching with all lenses.  Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted December 23, 2013 Share #39 Â Posted December 23, 2013 I wonder if the same Magoo assembled both of our Noctilux'es. I purchased a new one in Salzburg a few months ago, and recently sent it in to Leica. It backfocused at every distance on the M240. It's very easy to identify this by using a tripod, EVF/LV, a static subject, f/0.95 and swapping between using the EVF/LV and the rangefinder for focusing. I could also never get my Noctilux to focus at infinity while using the rangefinder. Strange thing. Â Mine also came assembled with a barrel that was slightly skewed. So that according the the markings the lens I could never reach "infinity" while focusing, and I could always focus much closer than 1 meter. Â The lens performed excellent otherwise. I also requested that Leica tighten up the aperture ring significantly as I really didn't like how loose and flimsy it was... Way too easy to change the aperture accidentaly. Â Let's scan our test certificates and post them here and see if we have the same signature? Would be interesting to see if that was the case! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted December 23, 2013 Author Share #40  Posted December 23, 2013 Here’s my certificate.  Wilson Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/218772-bad-nocti-mr-magoo-still-alive-and-working-at-leica/?do=findComment&comment=2493423'>More sharing options...
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