Fast Lens Question

[edvatza]

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I am basically a street photographer doing a mostly street candids but also working on a street portrait project. Camera is a M-E. Current lenses include 28mm Elmarit, 35mm Summarit, 50mm Summicron and 90mm Summarit. I tend to use the 35 and 50 most often.

 

I am looking for a lens faster than anything I currently have to help me with background bokehs when doing portraits on the street. Can't afford the Noctilux. Can't really afford the 35 Summilux. I have worked it down to either the CV Nocton 35 1.2 or the Nockton 50 1.1 with a lean toward the 35. Maybe, just maybe, I could swing the Summilux 50 but that would be a stretch and I am not sure the Cron 2.0/Lux 1.4 difference would be worth the extra dollars.

 

Thoughts? Any Zeiss glass I should think about?

 

Thanks.

 

Ed

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[01af]

If the Noctilux 50 mm and Summilux 35 mm are out of the question then I'd say—either Voigtländer Nokton 35 mm 1:1.2 or Summilux-M 50 mm 1:1.4 (w/ or w/o Asph). Umm, wait—the old Summarit 5 cm 1:1.5, which is readily available in the used market, also might be an alternative ... but the bokeh of this particular lens (not to be confused with the current Summarit-M 50 mm 1:2.5) might make you dizzy

 

Keep in mind that not only aperture but also focal length affects the degree of the background blur. A 50 mm lens at f/1.4 (or f/1.5) at a slightly longer distance to the main subject will blur the background more than a 35 mm lens at f/1.2 and a shorter distance. However if you absolutely prefer 35 mm over 50 mm then you shouldn't over-estimate the aperture. Focal length is always more important than aperture. On the other hand, real fast lenses are cheaper (and more numerous) in the 50 mm focal length than in 35 mm.

 

Also keep in mind that fast lenses, at full aperture, always have strong vignetting. This does not only affect the corners' brightness (or lack thereof) but also the apparent depth-of-field. The latter always corresponds to the effective brightness. So a super-fast lens at full aperture may render the background super-blurry—but only at the frame's center. In the corners, the background will appear significantly less blurry due to vignetting. So if your main subject is located at the frame's center and the background appears mostly near the frame's edges then a faster lens will add only so much to the apparent background blur, compared to a slower lens. You'll spend a lot of money for faster lenses but you'll gain only very little (or almost nothing) in terms of background blur.

 

So before dropping the money, test the lens you're having in mind whether it really meets your expectations!

[DigitalHeMan]

I am basically a street photographer doing a mostly street candids but also working on a street portrait project. Camera is a M-E. Current lenses include 28mm Elmarit, 35mm Summarit, 50mm Summicron and 90mm Summarit. I tend to use the 35 and 50 most often.

 

I am looking for a lens faster than anything I currently have to help me with background bokehs when doing portraits on the street. Can't afford the Noctilux. Can't really afford the 35 Summilux. I have worked it down to either the CV Nocton 35 1.2 or the Nockton 50 1.1 with a lean toward the 35. Maybe, just maybe, I could swing the Summilux 50 but that would be a stretch and I am not sure the Cron 2.0/Lux 1.4 difference would be worth the extra dollars.

 

Thoughts? Any Zeiss glass I should think about?

 

Thanks.

 

Ed

 

How about an older 50 Lux, for example the preASPH (final model before the ASPH lens was introduced)?

[algrove]

Rent one or more of the lenses you are thinking about and then you might be able to form better and more informed opinions before laying out the funds.

[IkarusJohn]

The 50 Summilux ASPH is worth the stretch - trade your 50 Summicron.

[otto.f]

I'm inclined to agree with IkarusJohn but my experience is that the summilux 50 asph is not so much a street lens, that's my personal view. It is quite heavy.

You own a 90 which has enough background blur so I suppose you want it wider. A 28 summicron gives, apart from the price, not so soon enough blur. If you have the relational competences to come closer to your subjects at street a 35 is a wonderfull portrait lens and if you come close enough there will be really enough background blur. A Summicron 35 pre-asph 'king of bokeh' is half the price of a summilux 50 asph and is a perfect street lens considering handling, carrying and unobtrusiveness. I doubt whether a summilux 35 gives you so much more background blur than a 2.0 or 2.5 if you do not come closer.

[Ecar]

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The 50 Summilux ASPH is worth the stretch - trade your 50 Summicron.

 

+1.

 

If, however, you don't want to part with your Summicron:

 

• 
  
• the Zeiss ZM 50/1.5 is a great choice for a classic look (but it exhibits focus shift - if you plan to use it primarily wide open, Zeiss will optimize it for f/1.5 instead of the default f/2.8 at no extra cost).
  
• I also like the new CV 50/1.5 ASPH, despite a tendency to flare. Again, a classic look but more "polished" than the Zeiss. Make sure you are happy with the knurled focus ring. I don't mind it, but some hate it.
  
• The CV 50/1.1 is large and heavy, but amazing at this price point compared to the Noctilux. An undeservedly un-loved lens if you ask me (maybe I have a particularly good copy, with very little focus shift).
  
• The CV 35/1.2 is also a bulky beast by rangefinder standards, but extremely capable and the fastest modern 35mm lens. I prefer the rendering of the v1, but the differences with the current version are, frankly, quite small.
  
• There are several older 50mm lenses (Leica, Zeiss, Nikon, Canon, etc.) in the sub-f/2 area. If you like that look, just pick your poison. Bear in mind, however, that many of these are becoming collectors' items, with prices to match. Fast 35mm lenses from the 50's-60's in good condition are virtually impossible to find at a reasonable price (and, to be honest, were already a stretch in terms of IQ in their time...), with the possible exception of the Canon 35/1.8 LTM.
  

Hope this helps. But maybe it's just adding confusion...

[otto.f]

It also depends whether you shoot mainly B&W or color. In my view the prices of the recent summiluxes 35 and 50 are most justified by their color rendition IMHO. For instance, I prefer the bokeh of the Summilux 50 in color and the bokeh of the 35 pre-asph in B&W, instead of vice versa.

[edvatza]

Thanks for all the replies, tips and suggestions. Lot to think about.

 

I will add that my preferred lens, among those I have, for street portraits is the Cron 50. But for candids, I lean toward the Summarit 35 or even the Elmarit 28. And I am very comfortable when I approach folks to do a portrait so getting close really isn't an issue. Actually, my problem with the 50 for candids is that I have a tendency to get too close.

 

Now this may sound crazy but when I head into the city to shoot on the street, I usually go in with just a single lens. Sometimes it is the 35, particularly when I am in more of a candid mood. Sometimes it is the 50 when I feel I want to hunt for portrait opportunities. Occasionally, I will go with the 28. And I rarely take a second lens.

[Duane Pandorf]

I am happy with my pre-ASPH 35mm Summilux on my M-E. Its very small, does not block the viewfinder and when stopped down to just f/2.0 makes a brilliant "Summicron" so to speak.

 

At f/1.4 I like the background bokeh compared to some of the older fast lenses. Its also a Mander design, not that means anything.

 

But again maybe a bit of a reach and of course trying to find one that's in reasonable condition. I paid in the mid $2k for one that came wrapped in original plastic and box with all the paperwork. I don't think it had ever been used.

 

I too have the pre-ASPH 50mm Summilux e46 and between the two I sometimes can't decide which I want on the camera.

[algrove]

At f/1.4 I like the background bokeh compared to some of the older fast lenses. Its also a Mander design, not that means anything.

 

I understand what you mean, but to me Mandler lenses have a character all their own and it makes me want a Mandler and a more modern lens in most FL where possible.

[Duane Pandorf]

I understand what you mean, but to me Mandler lenses have a character all their own and it makes me want a Mandler and a more modern lens in most FL where possible.

 

Couldn't agree more. I also have a nice copy of his 90mm Elmarit-M. And if I had the money I'd own his 50mm f/1.0.

[rramesh]

If you are looking at new lenses, I would definitely suggest the Summilux 50 ASPH or if you feel its out of your reach, then the Voigtlander Nokton F1.5/50mm aspherical.

 

If second hand, there are many options based on quality and price.

[tobey bilek]

50 1.4 asph or 50 2.8 collapsible second version. I find bokeh to be beautiful on both.

 

Use a modern lens for wide aperture. For 4 to 8 , any Summicron

[MarkP]

1.4/50 Summilux ASPH or 1.5/50 ZM C-Sonnar

[250swb]

Can't afford the Noctilux. Can't really afford the 35 Summilux. I have worked it down to either the CV Nocton 35 1.2 or the Nockton 50 1.1 with a lean toward the 35.

 

The bokeh of the CV 50mm f/1.1 is very harsh and contrasty, but that can be good for some subjects if you want 'unease' as a theme. In amongst the 50's there is the ZM Sonnar that is well known for its bokeh, but it is designed so everything all gets softer wide open, like a classic portrait lens. But that can be good in situations where you have very contrasty lighting and want to mellow the whole image.

 

The other classic option for portraits is to go longer, not necessarily by a lot, but there is the CV 75mm f/1.8 Heliar that has good bokeh, and is cheap compared with the others. Being just that bit longer you may find it more versatile than needing to get in close for a portrait with a 35mm?

 

Steve

[pgk]

I will add that my preferred lens, among those I have, for street portraits is the Cron 50.

The 50 Summilux can be had for a not too ridiculous price for an older, less than mint copy. Its added bonus is that if you buy at a reasonable price you stand a very good chance of recouping its cost if you don't like it (which you will) and if (and when you decide that) you do, then you could sell off the 50 Summicron. I would unhesitatingly say that the 50 lux would be the lens I would recommend. The only 50mm lens I've preferred to the 50/Summilux is the later Aspheric version which IS better at full aperture.

 

FWIW my experience with f/1.2 vs f/1.4 is that the increased focus accuracy required largely negates the increased aperture - OK I know Leica and others make and have made faster lenses (I've owned an f/1 Noctilux) but I personally have relegated these to the 'specialist' class - I believe that there has to be a pressing need for the absolute fast aperture rather than just thinking that this marginal extra aperture might be useful. So I'd be looking a f/1.4 lenses as being the best compromise myself - and there are more alternatives available if you do so.

[250swb]

Its a good point about the practicality of using the faster lenses Paul. When I had the Nokton f/1.1 for a short time I needed the 1.25 magnifier to get accurate focus wide open even for landscape work mounted on a tripod. Sometimes hand held with a contrasty edge to focus on I could nail it, but often a subjects eye isn't as contrasty as you'd like. The 50mm Summilux is just on the cusp of where focusing accuracy is more often rather than less often. It's going to be slightly better or worse for each photographer under quiet conditions, but then throw into the mix the subject moving or jostling in the street and I think shooting fully wide open veers towards far more focus failures than successes.

 

Steve

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[edvatza]

I think I've done quite a bit of secondary research on most of the lenses discussed here albeit in just the past few days. Here is where I net out.

 

1) The more I think about what my major reason (better bokeh on street portraits) is, the more I find myself leaning toward a 50mm lens.

2) I have a 50mm Summicron and really like it so I am not looking to sell it at this point.

3) I am trying to save dollars toward an M-Monochrom so don't want to spend big dollars on glass right now so I am leaning against the 50 Lux.

4) This brings me back to the 50mm CVs. I keep thinking about the Nokton 50 1.1 but I'm not sure I would dig the size.

5) So my conclusion at this time is go have a hands on look at the CV Nokton 50mm f/1.5. It looks like it could be a really nice partner to the 50 Cron.

 

Ed

[MarkP]

I think I've done quite a bit of secondary research on most of the lenses discussed here albeit in just the past few days. Here is where I net out.

 

1) The more I think about what my major reason (better bokeh on street portraits) is, the more I find myself leaning toward a 50mm lens.

2) I have a 50mm Summicron and really like it so I am not looking to sell it at this point.

3) I am trying to save dollars toward an M-Monochrom so don't want to spend big dollars on glass right now so I am leaning against the 50 Lux.

4) This brings me back to the 50mm CVs. I keep thinking about the Nokton 50 1.1 but I'm not sure I would dig the size.

5) So my conclusion at this time is go have a hands on look at the CV Nokton 50mm f/1.5. It looks like it could be a really nice partner to the 50 Cron.

 

Ed

If you are saving for a Monochrom and you are happy with your 50 Summicron will you really be much better off by adding a f1.4/1.5 lens (especially for street photography where you probably want at least a bit of DOF) ?