CEO Alfred Schopf and future products

[zlatkob]

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Sony has the sensors. A lot of the rest is meh, particularly the lenses when compared with Leica. A camera system is about optimizing all variables which make it, rather than maximizing one, which in the case of Sony is the sensor. Sonys A7® are the Mustang Shelbys of cameras. A huge engine, the rest is not for connoisseurs, they still prefer Porsche`s 911. There is a market for an outstanding compact Leica system built around a state of the art aps-c sensor.

 

Well said. Buyers may have different preferences, even if they are shopping at the same price point. Some may prefer a smaller "engine" at a higher price if the rest of the system is more appealing to them.

[luigi bertolotti]

I believe Leica can, and will, sell an APS-C Mirrorless System Camera. I also believe they can, and will, charge a premium. Finally I believe photographers will buy into this system. Comparing Leica to Sony is simply silly. Please give your heads a shake. Not everyone wants a full frame sensor, even if you do.

 

I tend to agree : for Leica "broaden the market" doesn't mean to reach Sony numbers : if the X line has been, till now, satisfactory for them, and the X Vario too makes good numbers (always considering their expectations, market, and production capacity) there is a sense in pursuing that road with a system camera : APS-C can give some advantage on the lenses' size (imagine an A7 with a Noctilux or a Summilux 21... ) and Leica is obviously mindful on this side. Probably, a fundamental choice for them, can be which kind of mount they engineer : by logic, it ought to be new, to accomodate a new specific lens' lineup... but they know that some sort of M compatibility, even with adapter, would be welcome by many people.

Edited November 18, 2013 by luigi bertolotti

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[AlanG]

I believe Leica can, and will, sell an APS-C Mirrorless System Camera. I also believe they can, and will, charge a premium. Finally I believe photographers will buy into this system. Comparing Leica to Sony is simply silly. Please give your heads a shake. Not everyone wants a full frame sensor, even if you do.

 

That is what Olympus thought with the 1/2 frame small Pen F film cameras. (Without the premium pricing.) But people bought full frame SLRs by a much wider margin. Manufacturers made smaller and lighter full frame cameras of all sorts from the OM-1 and Nikon FM down to Rollei 35s and Olympus XAs. The same thing is happening with digital now that the A7 and RX1 are out.

 

Leica might have some way to justify its price if it can add better technology and fine lenses. But they do not have the ability to innovate technology and are talking about sub-contracting lenses to get affordable pricing. So how is this APS camera going to work better and take a better photo than other APS cameras? And just look at how excited Leica owners are about the possibility of using their M lenses on an A7r compared to any number of APS mirrorless cameras. For less than the price of an X Vario and EVF one can buy the A7r with 24-70 F4. Yes, it is a little larger.

 

BTW smaller APS format lenses work on the A7. And by the time Leica makes an APS system, Sony and others might even smaller and less expensive full frame mirrorless bodies.

Edited November 18, 2013 by AlanG

[rosuna]

Well said. Buyers may have different preferences, even if they are shopping at the same price point. Some may prefer a smaller "engine" at a higher price if the rest of the system is more appealing to them.

 

You cannot ask for a premium price in that kind of product. APS-C cameras will have to reduce prices for surviving. That is the point. Low margings, few units cannot be sustained.

 

It was the argument for the development of the S system. You cannot ask for substantial premium prices in the 24x36 format reflex segment of the market. You can do it by pushing the system above, making it different.

 

The public who look for 1000 euros cameras is not the public looking for 6000 euros cameras, and this is not the public looking for 19,000 euros cameras. The point is you can charge premium prices for brand and differentiation in the two last cases, but not in the first one.

[janki]

Sony has the sensors. A lot of the rest is meh, particularly the lenses when compared with Leica. A camera system is about optimizing all variables which make it, rather than maximizing one, which in the case of Sony is the sensor. Sonys A7® are the Mustang Shelbys of cameras. A huge engine, the rest is not for connoisseurs, they still prefer Porsche`s 911. There is a market for an outstanding compact Leica system built around a state of the art aps-c sensor.

Give me a Leica compact system with the Foveon Merrill aps-c sensor inside and FF Bayer will be in trouble.

Well, - if there is at least one thing I have learned from you Americans;

 

“There is no substitute for cubic inches.”

:D:D

[AlanG]

If you own an A7r and a Nex APS camera, Sony's autofocus APS and full frame lenses (E, FE, and A mount) will work on both of your cameras. Is Leica going to do anything like that?

 

Speaking of construction quality... the shutters in "cheap" Nex cameras can fire 10 frames per second and some can use an electronic first curtain. They have fast sensor based or adapter SLT based PD AF. Isn't that more "Porsche" like? Whereas Leica has had issues with shutter blades breaking, strap lugs coming unscrewed, base plate attachment point on the camera failing, preview levers falling off, sensor covers cracking, lines in the images, firmware issues, coffee filter stains on the LCD, overlooking IR filtering on the M8, and all M8s being recalled early in production for some kind of part to be replaced due to imaging issues, anomalies when using quiet mode with continuous shooting, SD card compatibility issues, power issues, and more? Plus camera rangefinders and lenses are sometimes delivered needing to be returned for focus adjustment.

Edited November 18, 2013 by AlanG

[hoppyman]

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I tend to agree : for Leica "broaden the market" doesn't mean to reach Sony numbers : if the X line has been, till now, satisfactory for them, and the X Vario too makes good numbers (always considering their expectations, market, and production capacity) there is a sense in pursuing that road with a system camera : APS-C can give some advantage on the lenses' size (imagine an A7 with a Noctilux or a Summilux 21... ) and Leica is obviously mindful on this side. Probably, a fundamental choice for them, can be which kind of mount they engineer : by logic, it ought to be new, to accomodate a new specific lens' lineup... but they know that some sort of M compatibility, even with adapter, would be welcome by many people.

 

I would add that Leica Camera have already designed a very good prime and a zoom that work extremely well with the X system sensor. I don't know more than anyone else of course but I would guess that whatever new design they come up with would allow use of the M & R lenses via adaptors too?

[IkarusJohn]

I tend to agree : for Leica "broaden the market" doesn't mean to reach Sony numbers : if the X line has been, till now, satisfactory for them, and the X Vario too makes good numbers (always considering their expectations, market, and production capacity) there is a sense in pursuing that road with a system camera : APS-C can give some advantage on the lenses' size (imagine an A7 with a Noctilux or a Summilux 21... ) and Leica is obviously mindful on this side. Probably, a fundamental choice for them, can be which kind of mount they engineer : by logic, it ought to be new, to accomodate a new specific lens' lineup... but they know that some sort of M compatibility, even with adapter, would be welcome by many people.

 

For those who like the idea of APS-C, it is worth remembering that Leica only makes two interchangeable lens mounts - the S mount and the M mount. In the past, they have used the M mount for a smaller sensor (the APS-H in the M8), and it is possible they will do so again (though why, when they already have access to a purpose built full frame sensor).

 

I would have thought that generating production numbers of those sensors would be a priority for Leica - the more cameras using the CMOSIS sensor the better for all of us - more product, more support, more innovation. Also, Leica is on record saying they will not produce a new line of lenses (I know they have said a lot in the past, so it has to be taken with a grain of salt).

 

It seems to me that Leica needs to play to its strengths (very fine M lenses and a good full frame sensor that can deal with the register distance of the M mount) - this means they more than anyone can make small lenses and small cameras of very fine quality. Their point of difference will be exceptional, manual image making cameras in a small, well built package.

 

We already have the M(240) which does all this ... Yes, to a point. But it has the problem of the M camera legacy - the chorus here at the suggestion of an M camera without a rangefinder is reflected, I'm sure, at Leica HQ. They need to move away from that camera, and the issues it presents from an quality control perspective.

 

What they need to do is to let go of their traditional idea of a camera (keep producing and upgrading the M camera, with the rangefinder), and produce a good quality M mount electronic camera that actually capitalises on what Leica is good at, and has state of the art electronics. The X-Vario is well made, but a step down from the M(240). It's a simple recipe, for which they have all the ingredients already, except for a good EVF, the processor and software - how hard is that to find?

 

The biggest obstacle is that Leica is blinded by its own history. It's so strange that they produce the X2 and X-Vario (which apparently only distinguish themselves with image quality; and that is questionable, depending who you talk to) with APS-C sensors and fixed Leica glass, and the next camera is the M(240) - I'm assuming the M-E is actually out of production (that camera was just an opportunity to use up sensor inventory so they can force the rest of us with CCD sensors to the next iteration of the M(240) when our cameras crap out).

 

Cheers

John

[rosuna]

I would add that Leica Camera have already designed a very good prime and a zoom that work extremely well with the X system sensor. I don't know more than anyone else of course but I would guess that whatever new design they come up with would allow use of the M & R lenses via adaptors too?

 

None is interested in crop modes. People accept it, if there is no alternative. But now we have one...

[rosuna]

Give me a Leica compact system with the Foveon Merrill aps-c sensor inside and FF Bayer will be in trouble.

 

We will see the proliferarion of multilayer sensors soon... but on reflex cameras, not interchangeable lens mirrorless cameras. The angle of incidence problem is more serious with this type of sensors.

[earleygallery]

Whatever Leica introduce, and I am certain that it won't be M4/3rds, but a new AF system camera, we should perhaps remind ourselves that they are usually behind the curve technically speaking, and worryingly, they also seem to be veering more towards the 'luxury brand' market.

 

I expect a somewhat underwhelming APS-C camera and a few Leica branded lenses made in the Far East but stamped 'Germany' where final assembly/checking will take place. It will be much more expensive than the - by then - many FF options which should appeal more to serious photographers.

 

I'm not sure how much longer Leica can milk their brand in the digital world - apart from the M simply because they have that niche to themselves.

[Angora]

And by the time Leica makes an APS system, Sony and others might even smaller and less expensive full frame mirrorless bodies.

 

As soon as next year, in fact.

Sony フルサイズを積んだNEX-5の意匠：エンジニアの嗜み：So-netブログ

The super compact E-mount Full Frame camera patent! | sonyalpharumors

 

 

So, Leica, where's that long due CL digital which people have been asking about? Make it cheapish, AF and APS-C.

That way it won't eat M sales, will draw new customers in, and I bet a good chunk of M owners could contemplate taking it as a backup body (if the mount is also designed to accept M lenses).

[algrove]

I'd rather take a $1600 24MP FF Sony a7 as a backup to my M than take any APS-C.

[lct]

OK if the Sonys fit well my M lenses (?) but otherwise thanks no thanks i'd prefer an APS CL... save that it will never happen i'm afraid.

[rosuna]

Cheaper rangefinders is not the way to follow.

 

I don't have the numbers but Alan seems to have nailed it: a full frame complement and derivative of the M cameras. Lower cost, maybe lower margin, different experience, full compatibility with M lenses, and maybe new AF f/2.5 lenses. Electronic viewfinder, of course. You build from the existing and successful M system, you expand it. Any new system is a real danger at this moment. Any new APS-C system is more than a risk. We don't know where those systems go. Lower prices, lower sales, for sure.

 

A new supersmall ultra cute system may work in the market... under Leica brand, but the competition will be much higher than in the upper segments of the market. Too risky. The development of a complete system is very costly. Any mistake in product specifications or execution may be fatal there.

 

Leica sells the brand. Where can they ask for a higher premium for the brand? Not at the low end. In a few months the APS-C and M4/3 will be more "low end" than they are now.

Edited November 19, 2013 by rosuna

[stevelap]

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if any new Leica CSC is APS. And if it is, well as long as it is capable of excellent IQ with its new range of AF lenses, and legacy lenses via adaptors, then I also wouldn't be surprised if Leica can make a success of it. That's success in Leica's own terms of course......whilst I'm sure they wouldn't say no to a larger market share, they are not mass market players and any new system is bound to be sold at a premium price.

 

Leica have been hinting that new products are on the way for some time, including a CSC and including AF (they have also consistently said that 4/3rds no longer interests them, other than the Panaleica lenses), so whatever they have planned almost certainly exists in prototype/engineering test article form with beta testing next (if not already underway ).

 

At these times it's worth remembering that there are forum members who are Leica beta testers and others who are journalists in the field.......whenever they go 'silent and deep' on the forum something is inevitably brewing .

 

It's also worth remembering that all LUF members combined make up a very small, if vocal, percentage of Leica's worldwide customer base. Whilst 'we' and other enthusiasts might obsess over tech specs and insist upon FF many others, I suspect, simply aren't concerned with that level of detail.

[earleygallery]

My worry Steve is that Leica have been down the 'luxury goods' market before with Hermes and it didn't end too well.

 

Having moved quite obviously more towards the serious photography market since then, they now appear to be changing tack and playing on their 'luxury' branding again.

 

I'm not sure the world is big enough (or stupid enough) for another Hasselblad Lunar.

[stevelap]

Hopefully they won't go that far James......

[algrove]

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if any new Leica CSC is APS. And if it is, well as long as it is capable of excellent IQ with its new range of AF lenses, and legacy lenses via adaptors, then I also wouldn't be surprised if Leica can make a success of it. That's success in Leica's own terms of course......whilst I'm sure they wouldn't say no to a larger market share, they are not mass market players and any new system is bound to be sold at a premium price.

 

Leica have been hinting that new products are on the way for some time, including a CSC and including AF (they have also consistently said that 4/3rds no longer interests them, other than the Panaleica lenses), so whatever they have planned almost certainly exists in prototype/engineering test article form with beta testing next (if not already underway ).

 

At these times it's worth remembering that there are forum members who are Leica beta testers and others who are journalists in the field.......whenever they go 'silent and deep' on the forum something is inevitably brewing .

 

It's also worth remembering that all LUF members combined make up a very small, if vocal, percentage of Leica's worldwide customer base. Whilst 'we' and other enthusiasts might obsess over tech specs and insist upon FF many others, I suspect, simply aren't concerned with that level of detail.

 

As soon as you mentioned adapters, I thought, Oh, another one year plus wait since they can't even put out a simple piece of machined metal for their loyal R lens fans.

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Hallo,

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[IkarusJohn]

Can't get too excited about a new Leica product, I'm afraid.

 

 

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