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a week with the M240 and pretty disillusioned‎


hossegor

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jaap/algorve: hey, guys, not everyone can get a hold of the M240 to try it out. Some of us have to judge it on the basis of the results one sees on the web and from processing DNG files from it. And to say that one perceives a difference in color rendition from that of the M9 is not bashing the camera, but represents simply a matter of taste. I certainly think that most photographers experienced in post-processing of DNG files will be able to come to a conclusion, as the OP here has done. Nothing surprising about that. That also seems to be the case of Prosophos who is a rather good photographer in Toronto, who recently bought an M240 and seems to be going back to the M9. There seems to be a difference of taste, based on some difference in color rendition. Please don't call to bashing.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Looking for Baudelaire [WIP]

It does not encompass well-founded reasons.
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I always learn from this site. People, their tastes and reasoning have so many variations.

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Edited by george +
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who said that they shoot in JPG ? i did not , thats for sure. anyways my M240 is gone now :rolleyes:, what a relief. will pick up my new M9P on saturday..

 

You can roll your eyes all you want, and you can certainly prefer the M9, but your choice of the M9 is not based on which camera can produce higher quality images.

 

If you placed prints side by side it could be difficult to tell the difference in a lot of situations. But, in many situations you would be able to tell differences:

 

1) The M would be less likely to blow highlights. With a whopping 1.5 stops more dynamic range the M can better capture wider lighting conditions

2) The overall detail would be greater and less likely to produce moire.

3) You might notice less noise in the print.

4) B&W should look better. The number of distinguishable gray levels the camera can produce is greater and this is especially important in B&W.

5) Color should seem richer as the M can distinguish more colors.

6) Under situations where higher ISO is required the M will handle artificial light much better and produce more colors and much less noise.

 

All of these advantages pay off in spades once you start to process your photographs and discover the huge increase in the latitude you have to manipulate your files in PP. There, the much greater dynamic range allows you to make adjustments that just can not be done with the M9. The latitude of adjustment that can be made before posterization becomes present is huge. The way luminance noise can be dealt with especially it higher ISO is a big advantage, as is the lesser amount of ugly, blotchy color noise present at higher ISO. The M9 falls apart at higher ISO with skin tones while the M can hold more colors and better color balance especially under artificial lighting conditions.

 

With the greater ability to manipulate the image in post processing comes a longer and maybe steeper learning curve. Certainly, it took me much, much longer than a few days to appreciate these qualities. I have had the camera for over 7 months and I am still learning. Certainly, a week isn't even long enough to understand how to capture a superior image file with the M, let alone understand how to process it.

 

Other, more subtile aspects come into play as well. For example, with lower noise comes some unintended consequences. Images taken at base ISO may seem to lack a "look." They may seem not as sharp or detailed. This can be due to the fact that with less noise comes a smoother image. In PP, grain may need to added to get the same look or sharpness may need to be increased.

 

Another issue, has to due with the higher dynamic range of the M and how it makes the color (to my eye) look artificial and amped up. Saturation is very hot coming out of the M. All of these things are not bad, they just take time to learn how to deal with and understand in order to produce the "look" you want... or probably, more to the point, the way you are used to.

 

I understand that a person's personal preference does not need to be explained, but to retreat back to older technology seems to be the wrong way forward. And, the next M will only be even more "different" than the M9.

 

I know you have hastily sold your M, but maybe someone new to the M will give the camera a longer trial if, they understand that the new M can be made to produce the "look" of the M9, but more importantly, it can produce much more.

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Some of us have to judge it...

 

....without real experience.

 

Therein lies the debate.

 

Not a case of bashing; just not as credible assessment.

 

As for those who have used the M, but don't like it....no problem here...options and choices are good. To each his/her own.

 

Outside the forums, looking at anonymously exhibited prints, nobody knows (or cares) what camera was used.

 

Jeff

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Not good. Does it happen when you use another copy of the EVF?

 

Yes, three different ones to date. We will see how this #4 camera behaves. Due to major surgery I have used it very little with my R lenses. That will now change.

 

Based on a Leica contact who met me while in the Solms showroom (the same day CS said they had never heard of the lockup/dimming issue) the guy said he had one lockup and changed EVF and never had it again.

 

I brought two with me on that trip (just in case) and sadly both behaved similarly.

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jaap/algorve: hey, guys, not everyone can get a hold of the M240 to try it out. Some of us have to judge it on the basis of the results one sees on the web and from processing DNG files from it. And to say that one perceives a difference in color rendition from that of the M9 is not bashing the camera, but represents simply a matter of taste. I certainly think that most photographers experienced in post-processing of DNG files will be able to come to a conclusion, as the OP here has done. Nothing surprising about that. That also seems to be the case of Prosophos who is a rather good photographer in Toronto, who recently bought an M240 and seems to be going back to the M9. There seems to be a difference of taste, based on some difference in color rendition. Please don't call to bashing.

 

—Mitch/Bangkok

Looking for Baudelaire [WIP]

 

Mitch - I know you say it is a matter of taste, but I've been listening to you say this now for a long time. Would you please be specific on what you mean. At this point in time I have not read anything from you except voluminous numbers of posts from you stating you like the M9. What do you specifically like about it. Please be more specific than you just like the color better. That doesn't carry any weight. Otherwise it just tends to sound like you are rationalizing what you own.

 

Rick

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I've read no popular review that claimed the M9 IQ was better than the M240.

Google search for "Leica M240 review" and go through the pages. Everyone who seems to know what they're talking about prefers the new M.

(maybe the naysayers don't want to, or cannot, upgrade. Donno.)

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I am not taking sides in this debate, but just would like to mention that I personally know 3 Leica shooters friends who are disappointed with the M and regret having sold the M9. One of them actually asked to buy my M9 ;)

 

There are many other accounts of people who are ecstatic about their new M and believe it is the best camera they have ever used, including the M9, so different people different tastes.

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I am not taking sides in this debate, but just would like to mention that I personally know 3 Leica shooters friends who are disappointed with the M and regret having sold the M9. One of them actually asked to buy my M9 ;)

 

There are many other accounts of people who are ecstatic about their new M and believe it is the best camera they have ever used, including the M9, so different people different tastes.

 

Ok, let's not derail my question and point. I did not ask for more testimonials and more hearsay about people you personally know. This holds no weight with me because, it presents no factual information at all. It is gossip and is not fact based. It is actually a little silly in a conversation like this. If, you want to bring on to the forum these 3 people that you personally know to discuss exactly what is better about the M9, fine. Otherwise try and answer my question to Mitch, with some facts. OK?

 

I posted above (in post #65) and put in print what I have learned about shooting the camera for over 7 months and why it is hands down a much better camera than the M9. Read my post and respond in kind, with something substantial. Can someone who thinks the M9 is so much better please elaborate with something other than they know someone who doesn't like the M? Or, that the M color is just sooooo not CCD-like?

 

I don't want to hear about people that know people that are professionals that have gone back to their M9. I'm here. I'm real. I've shot both cameras for over 3 years, not one week. I didn't just downloaded a few DNG files and claim to PP them. Or, like the OP, own the camera for a week and then decide it was not as good as the M9. That was almost as silly as those claiming the M wasn't as good as the M9 in April when, they didn't even own it and it had only been out for less than a month.

 

Let's get real and put up some substantial comments. I am soooo on to the M bashing by M9 owners and those that have never shot it long enough to be credible. And, by the way, just because, you are a "professional" or a "wedding" photographer it doesn't matter to me. We are all on a level field here, ok? Leave it at the door.

 

 

 

p.s. Edward, who do you think you are kidding when you say that you are not taking sides? Then, you immediately follow it up by presenting testimonial evidence that you know 3 people who are disappointed with their M. Maybe, they just didn't like the box, for all we know? How about something substantial? Come on, do you even own the M? You aren't another one of those M-haters over here from the M9 forum to bash the M, are you?

Edited by RickLeica
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It is getting to be a bit weird, attributing colour response to CCD or CMos. The sensor sees only monochrome, irrespective of technology. The colour is determined by the spectral response of the Bayer filter and the algorithms used in firmware. Those parameters have nothing to do with sensor type, but with the designers’ choice.

After that you get the three RGB colour channels which you can play against each other to create a any colour look you like.

Edited by jaapv
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Ok, let's not derail my question and point. I did not ask for more testimonials and more hearsay about people you personally know. This holds no weight with me because, it presents no factual information at all. It is gossip and is not fact based. It is actually a little silly in a conversation like this. If, you want to bring on to the forum these 3 people that you personally know to discuss exactly what is better about the M9, fine. Otherwise try and answer my question to Mitch, with some facts. OK?

 

I posted above (in post #65) and put in print what I have learned about shooting the camera for over 7 months and why it is hands down a much better camera than the M9. Read my post and respond in kind, with something substantial. Can someone who thinks the M9 is so much better please elaborate with something other than they know someone who doesn't like the M? Or, that the M color is just sooooo not CCD-like?

 

I don't want to hear about people that know people that are professionals that have gone back to their M9. I'm here. I'm real. I've shot both cameras for over 3 years, not one week. I didn't just downloaded a few DNG files and claim to PP them. Or, like the OP, own the camera for a week and then decide it was not as good as the M9. That was almost as silly as those claiming the M wasn't as good as the M9 in April when, they didn't even own it and it had only been out for less than a month.

 

Let's get real and put up some substantial comments. I am soooo on to the M bashing by M9 owners and those that have never shot it long enough to be credible. And, by the way, just because, you are a "professional" or a "wedding" photographer it doesn't matter to me. We are all on a level field here, ok? Leave it at the door.

 

 

 

p.s. Edward, who do you think you are kidding when you say that you are not taking sides? Then, you immediately follow it up by presenting testimonial evidence that you know 3 people who are disappointed with their M. Maybe, they just didn't like the box, for all we know? How about something substantial? Come on, do you even own the M? You aren't another one of those M-haters over here from the M9 forum to bash the M, are you?

 

I'm not sure what exactly did I say to deserve this backlash.

 

As I said I'm not taking sides, and my account of those 3 friends is real, which I stated matter-of-factly. I also said others are ecstatic about their Ms, so it's just a matter of different tastes.

 

And no, I don't own the M, and I have never used one. Only two days ago, Leica Thailand called me to inform me they had a few in stock for the very generous offer of 9000$ per piece, so I respectfully declined the offer. I will wait for my local dealer to get it in stock, the difference in price will be over 1k, so I'm willing to wait.

Edited by edwardkaraa
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i guess Rick finds it a bit hard to believe that someone does not like his super M with the super Iso performance, the super high dynamic range and the super cmos sensor.

the camera is just a tool Rick. i prefer the old tool. get over with it.

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Sorry, just got tired of these kinds of posts. I spent a considerable amount of time to post what I find better about the M. You responded with a couple of sentences that basically said you know a couple of guys that are disappointed by their M. Then you hid behind the comment that you didn't want to take sides... but you clearly did. Now, you want to know what you said?

 

But, if this is the best refute M9 owners have, I can play the gossip game. Ok... these three friends of yours that bought the M and are disappointed with their M and have regrets selling their M9... why do they still have their M cameras? They could simply sell their M240, buy the M9 back, suffer no more disappointment owning the crappy M, and bank some money,

 

See, it is just a stupid post that makes no sense.

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i guess Rick finds it a bit hard to believe that someone does not like his super M with the super Iso performance, the super high dynamic range and the super cmos sensor.

the camera is just a tool Rick. i prefer the old tool. get over with it.

 

This is all you got? You prefer your old tool? That doesn't bring anything to the table except your opinion. I was just hoping for something more than a popularity contest. But, if that is good enough for you then, I hope your enjoy your M9.

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Sorry, just got tired of these kinds of posts. I spent a considerable amount of time to post what I find better about the M. You responded with a couple of sentences that basically said you know a couple of guys that are disappointed by their M. Then you hid behind the comment that you didn't want to take sides... but you clearly did. Now, you want to know what you said?

 

But, if this is the best refute M9 owners have, I can play the gossip game. Ok... these three friends of yours that bought the M and are disappointed with their M and have regrets selling their M9... why do they still have their M cameras? They could simply sell their M240, buy the M9 back, suffer no more disappointment owning the crappy M, and bank some money,

 

See, it is just a stupid post that makes no sense.

 

I think you are being overly emotional, so I will leave it be.

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I think you are being overly emotional, so I will leave it be.

 

Not emotional at all, just rational. I may very well end up with the A7R in December and may sell my M. It is certainly going to be back at Leica in December to be repaired and if the problems with can't be solved, I'll shoot the A7R for a while. Sorry if you felt I attacked you. I generally like your posts.

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...

It's silly to own a 7000 $ camera which you have to work hard at to even like, let alone fall in love with.

....

 

It depends on your application, a friend of mine shoots with a 80MP camera and his digital technician spends several hours on each image before it is deemed "perfect" by his standards.

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It depends on your application, a friend of mine shoots with a 80MP camera and his digital technician spends several hours on each image before it is deemed "perfect" by his standards.

 

Not sure I want to get back into this thread as it seems to have gotten quite emotional, but I should clear up my earlier post.

 

I guess my post wasn't too clear on what I meant. With work I don't necessarily mean in post processing. I mean that some camera's just make you fall in love with them. While others take time and effort to fall in love with.

 

I can imagine the files from that 80mp monster are easy to love after the post processing is done. Personally I don't find the files from the M all that exciting (even after proper pp), but maybe with time and some mental adjustment (ie work) I will.

 

The MM took a while for me to find out in pp, but I fell in love with the files right away.

My point is that if it really takes months of continuous use to learn to appreciate a 7000 $ camera, you should probably choose the camera that grabs your excitement from the get go. Like for example seems to be the case with OP.

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