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No contest...definitely the MP.  It's not even a fair comparison....but, I guess, I should be careful. I assume that the OP wants to use the camera to take picture. If that is the case, the MP would certainly be my choice.

Edited by BradS
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7 hours ago, gabrielaszalos said:

Need a built in meter? MP

Do not care about a meter? M4

That is all there is to it.

Close but not quite :) ... no 75mm framelines on the M4 and the MP has an improved VF. But I hope the OP has chosen by now!

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Agree that the M4 does not have a 75 frame line but since I have never owned or plan on owning a 75 I don't see that as a limitation.  In fact, I prefer the cleaner viewfinder of the M2 with the original M4 being a close second.  I am not sure that the MP has a viewfinder that is improved over the M4.  I may be wrong but perhaps the MP simply has the small lens restored to the viewfinder which was removed from the M4-2 thru the M6TTL in an attempt by Leitz to save money.  It was the removal of the small lens which caused the later viewfinders to be more prone to flare.  The M4, like the M2, had the small lens and does not have a tendency to flare found in later M cameras up to the MP.

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Hello everyone, 

I love my MP, which I had to send in couple of weeks after buying it new and it had a revision of the mount, 
which was a bit notchy. 

I had a talk with an older Leica user about the quality of the old cameras and the newer ones, 
in my case, I just wanted to buy a camera that lasts me for decades (seems like a lot of people have that need)
and wanted the best quality for my money.


Some tend to say, that the M4's quality is better than the newer MPs. I don't know what the know, that I don't know, 
but would love to know your opinions or about your knowledge regarding quality. 

Sarcastically spoken: is the newer MP also up to the standards of a pro or just made for the dentist, who want to shoot a role every once in a while?

I have no clue, but learned to doubt.


I am semi-professional, so I also do paid jobs with my camera sometimes, I develop, scan and enlarge myself (also using other formats and cameras). 

My Leica was supposed to be the steady companion, so I don't want it to fail. First impression wasn't that nice unfortunately.
Sending in a camera after a couple of weeks kind of clouds your mood, and who wants that, when he is using a Leica (that you mostly buy because of emotions). 

It's probably a thing of our time.. I talked to car and watch owners about similar experiences.. quality is just not what it used to be.. 

I know I am suffering from vanity, because I want the security to have and use a beloved item and "camera of a lifetime" forever..

curious about your points of view!

 

Thank you!

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vor 36 Minuten schrieb Leon Berg:

I talked to car and watch owners about similar experiences.. quality is just not what it used to be.. 

I have read statements like this one over and over, relating to both cars and watches as well as cameras. For example, older cars had thicker body panels, and are therefore better. Well then, how come that many of them still rusted away like snow melting in the sun? And how come those older cars with thicker, read better body panels are way unsafer than modern cars?

Seriously, I have been interested in cars my entire life, and cars have never been better than today. Today's cars are MUCH safer than vintage cars, they are MUCH less prone to rusting, they require MUCH less maintenance, and on average they simply last MUCH longer than cars from, say, the sixties or seventies. Oh, and modern cars have double, sometimes quadruple the power output (based on the same engine size) and still consume almost half of what older cars needed. 

Just to give an example, on my 1971 VW type 3, I needed to replace the exhaust every two years, and sometimes even sooner. On modern cars I found the exhaust to last for 10 or more years and 200 - 250000 km. Modern engines usually last for at least 300000 km, and considerably more if well cared for. In former times Volkswagen used to give its customers a special medal when they managed to reach 100000 km with their air-cooled Beetle engines. They would have to give out many, many medals today, as 100000 km is nothing for a modern engine.

The same is true for watches. Mechanical watches have never been better than today. I won't go into further detail here, but just have a look at the current mechanical movements newly designed by a number of Swiss watch making companies, they employ state of the art materials, have much better precision and need less maintenance.

Turning to the original question, older Leica cameras are certainly of very high quality, but so are modern Leica cameras, and in particular modern mechanical M cameras. The only problem seems to be that Leica sometimes seems to lack well educated personnel which is needed to correctly assemble those mechanical cameras, and that may lead to some frustration at the customer's end if incorrectly assembled cameras are delivered to a customer.

Andy

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vor 55 Minuten schrieb wizard:

I have read statements like this one over and over, relating to both cars and watches as well as cameras. For example, older cars had thicker body panels, and are therefore better. Well then, how come that many of them still rusted away like snow melting in the sun? And how come those older cars with thicker, read better body panels are way unsafer than modern cars?

Seriously, I have been interested in cars my entire life, and cars have never been better than today. Today's cars are MUCH safer than vintage cars, they are MUCH less prone to rusting, they require MUCH less maintenance, and on average they simply last MUCH longer than cars from, say, the sixties or seventies. Oh, and modern cars have double, sometimes quadruple the power output (based on the same engine size) and still consume almost half of what older cars needed. 

Just to give an example, on my 1971 VW type 3, I needed to replace the exhaust every two years, and sometimes even sooner. On modern cars I found the exhaust to last for 10 or more years and 200 - 250000 km. Modern engines usually last for at least 300000 km, and considerably more if well cared for. In former times Volkswagen used to give its customers a special medal when they managed to reach 100000 km with their air-cooled Beetle engines. They would have to give out many, many medals today, as 100000 km is nothing for a modern engine.

The same is true for watches. Mechanical watches have never been better than today. I won't go into further detail here, but just have a look at the current mechanical movements newly designed by a number of Swiss watch making companies, they employ state of the art materials, have much better precision and need less maintenance.

Turning to the original question, older Leica cameras are certainly of very high quality, but so are modern Leica cameras, and in particular modern mechanical M cameras. The only problem seems to be that Leica sometimes seems to lack well educated personnel which is needed to correctly assemble those mechanical cameras, and that may lead to some frustration at the customer's end if incorrectly assembled cameras are delivered to a customer.

Andy

Thank you Andy, 

your words are kind of "healing".. I know I am suffering from first world problems and also might have a wrong perception of what is good and bad.. 

That's why I asked, I don't want to fall into error and into golden age thinking.. "it used to be better"

How many times I've read "the M2 and the M4 are the last true M cameras and the last ones built in manufacturer quality" 

Anyhow.. I tend to keep my MP,  it's just too lovely and I also enjoy using it a lot! What you say about educated personell I also heard from a german colleague.. 

Now that I've received my camera in perfect working condition, I am happy with it.. 

Some while ago I saw a german car show on TV with a guy complaining about his 5 year old Ferrari, there parts falling apart and he was really annoyed about the

customer service :) 

Well.. nothing is built to last forever.. thanks for your opinion Andy!

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The Leica M4 ended production in ca. 1975. All survivors are around 50 years old now. The implications of these simple facts are many and some of them are quite significant.

Nostalgia is a powerful force that defies all rationality.

Use the camera you have and don't obsess about what is "better" or "the best".  If the MP meets your needs, Great! - be happy! If it does not...then find something that does.

All this other non-sense is just noise.

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vor 1 Minute schrieb BradS:

The Leica M4 ended production in ca. 1975. All survivors are around 50 years old now. The implications of these simple facts are many and some of them are quite significant.

Nostalgia is a powerful force that defies all rationality.

Use the camera you have and don't obsess about what is "better" or "the best".  If the MP meets your needs, Great! - be happy! If it does not...then find something that does.

All this other non-sense is just noise.

Yes, the noise is overly loud in my head these past couple of days. 

I discovered scratches on my black paint MP. Finally. Too late to sell, finally some marks, that make it mine. 😂

Only concern was: is it worth the money, is it really as good inside as they used to be one day. And you're right, the M4s are 50 years old now

and you never know, what they went through. 

Anyhow, gonna use it until it doesn't work anymore. I guess it will survive me. 

 

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Maybe old but still purring like a cat 🐈 
enjoy 🍀

 

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I owned an MP for about ten years, from the date it was originally introduced to about 2012.  Finally got rid of it because the 35 and 50 frame lines, relative to an older Leica, were just so inaccurate at the distance I typically shoot.  Old story there, most people know it.  It also felt a little fraudulent -- new camera meant to look like something old.  What?  In addition, in most situations, shooting w/o a meter is far more quick (for me).  Then I tried an M4 and M5 before settling on the M2 (actually multiple copies).  The only area I'll give the nod to newer Leica's is the contrast of the rangefinder patch, but the old Leica's are generally good in this area too.  Just me; obviously others come to the opposite conclusion.

Edited by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex
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vor einer Stunde schrieb TheBestSLIsALeicaflex:

I owned an MP for about ten years, from the date it was originally introduced to about 2012.  Finally got rid of it because the 35 and 50 frame lines, relative to an older Leica, were just so inaccurate at the distance I typically shoot.  Old story there, most people know it.  It also felt a little fraudulent -- new camera meant to look like something old.  What?  In addition, in most situations, shooting w/o a meter is far more quick (for me).  Then I tried an M4 and M5 before settling on the M2 (actually multiple copies).  The only area I'll give the nod to newer Leica's is the contrast of the rangefinder patch, but the old Leica's are generally good in this area too.  Just me; obviously others come to the opposite conclusion.

Thanks a lot for the insight.

as I mentioned before, my mount didn’t work properly with some lenses.

I haven’t observed the issue with the frame lines, that would be a worst case scenario, if my camera chooses what to put in frame and not me. 

is this a common thing for this camera or does it happen to just some? I will definitely take a closer look on that. May I ask, if there is anything more to be aware of for the MP? 

Mine still has 1,5 years warranty, I definitely want to figure out any problem, that could occur during this time.

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, Leon Berg said:

as I mentioned before, my mount didn’t work properly with some lenses.

I haven’t observed the issue with the frame lines, that would be a worst case scenario, if my camera chooses what to put in frame and not me. 

is this a common thing for this camera or does it happen to just some? I will definitely take a closer look on that. May I ask, if there is anything more to be aware of for the MP? 

Can't say I've heard of that issue before... expect in cases where initially goggled lenses have had them removed.

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2 hours ago, Leon Berg said:

Thanks a lot for the insight.

as I mentioned before, my mount didn’t work properly with some lenses.

I haven’t observed the issue with the frame lines, that would be a worst case scenario, if my camera chooses what to put in frame and not me. 

is this a common thing for this camera or does it happen to just some? I will definitely take a closer look on that. May I ask, if there is anything more to be aware of for the MP? 

Mine still has 1,5 years warranty, I definitely want to figure out any problem, that could occur during this time.

Thank you.

The frame line issue is just an old vs. new thing.  A trade off when they added a 28mm frame line to the viewfinder in circa 1980 with the M4-P.  In order to fit the extra frame line (i.e., make room for it), they had to shrink the existing 35mm and 50mm frame lines.  Back in the day, they justified the change by claiming you'll lose that amount of edge when slide film is mounted, but it was really to make room for the new 28mm frame lines.  So, at "normal" shooting distances, the 35mm frame line is really more toward 40mm and the 50mm is more narrow too.  For some, it's really bothersome, for others, they get used to it, or don't even notice.  Either way, it's probably not a big a deal; rangefinders aren't known for their framing accuracy anyway.  You can always crop, I suppose. 

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Hello Everybody,

When Leitz introduced the M3 in the early 1950's (The M3 was the first "M" camera. M1, M2, etc. came later.) they explained that the frame lines that a person saw inside the range/viewfinder window of an M3 represented the angle of coverage of mounted 50mm & 90mm lenses focused at 1 meter & 135mm lenses without goggles focused at 1.5 meters

minus 1/2mm around the edges to account for the amount of film covered by a slide mount.

The accommodation for a slide mount was already incorporated in the frame lines of the early 1950's M3.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

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vor 24 Minuten schrieb Michael Geschlecht:

Hello Everybody,

When Leitz introduced the M3 in the early 1950's (The M3 was the first "M" camera. M1, M2, etc. came later.) they explained that the frame lines that a person saw inside the range/viewfinder window of an M3 represented the angle of coverage of mounted 50mm & 90mm lenses focused at 1 meter & 135mm lenses without goggles focused at 1.5 meters

minus 1/2mm around the edges to account for the amount of film covered by a slide mount.

The accommodation for a slide mount was already incorporated in the frame lines of the early 1950's M3.

Best Regards,

Michael

 

Interesting, thank you Michael!

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheBestSLIsALeicaflex:

The frame line issue is just an old vs. new thing.  A trade off when they added a 28mm frame line to the viewfinder in circa 1980 with the M4-P.  In order to fit the extra frame line (i.e., make room for it), they had to shrink the existing 35mm and 50mm frame lines.  Back in the day, they justified the change by claiming you'll lose that amount of edge when slide film is mounted, but it was really to make room for the new 28mm frame lines.  So, at "normal" shooting distances, the 35mm frame line is really more toward 40mm and the 50mm is more narrow too.  For some, it's really bothersome, for others, they get used to it, or don't even notice.  Either way, it's probably not a big a deal; rangefinders aren't known for their framing accuracy anyway.  You can always crop, I suppose. 

I am considering sending mine in, having it changed to the M2 framelines. It's possible, depends on the price though. Question is, 

would that solve the "framing problem"?

I'd be ok to shoot a 28mm - if ever - with a viewfinder on top of the camera. I use 35+50 only. For that I find the 0.72 VF ideal. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Leon Berg said:

Interesting, thank you Michael!

I am considering sending mine in, having it changed to the M2 framelines. It's possible, depends on the price though. Question is, 

would that solve the "framing problem"?

I'd be ok to shoot a 28mm - if ever - with a viewfinder on top of the camera. I use 35+50 only. For that I find the 0.72 VF ideal. 

 

Hello Leon,

just curious

What is your "framing problem" ?

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vor 28 Minuten schrieb a.noctilux:

Hello Leon,

just curious

What is your "framing problem" ?

I don't have one 😃
I asked, what common problems with the newer MPs might be, so I could be aware. 

Mine had a mount, that didn't take a couple of lenses, so I sent the camera in and had it repaired. 

I feel that my copy is working fine, but was made aware that the frames might be a bit off (maybe with other Leicas, too, I don't know). 

About other occurring problems I don't know. If I don't see one, there probably is none :)  But the same applied for the mount, since I had only one lens, 

when I got my MP. When I tried lenses from a friend, I was shocked, that the mount seemed to be broken. Leica fixed it without complaint. 

If I could choose, I'd give up the 28/75/135 frame lines and have a "calmer" viewfinder, customer service told me, it's possible to change that. 

 

 

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