Leica stubborness will hurt sales

[hankg]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Leica may be coming out of a period where they sold fluff like ostrich skin or Hermes leather and acted like a luxury brand. But for Leica to return to the mainstream means that they want to be relevant to photography as a premium brand not that they want to reduce their prices or value in exchange for 10x the customer base. Their philosophy regarding quality and performance means that they will always be higher priced and lower volumes.

Premium tools always command a premium price. The issue is not price. In any case the M8 is not the most expensive 135 digital. It's whether you want to remove as many barriers as is practical to participation or you want to take every opporotunity to make Leica more 'exclusive', which in practice will mean excluding photographers and returning Leica to reliance on 'fluff'.

 

RF will always be a smaller market then the SLR market and Leica's comparitively spartan tools are'nt going to displace the fully loaded DSLR. But the market is potentially much larger then it has been in recent years and as you said and I agree, Leica can return to the mainstream and relevance as a speciallized premium brand.

[waterlenz]

There's zero chance Leica can protect their business from competition through the 6-bit coding. Let's imagine ... now Cosina is going to built a digital rangefinder camera called R5D - now

 

 

 

3. They can TOTALLY IGNORE Leica's 6-bit coding and program a menu-driven lens selection system which will let the camera recognize a certain lens either from its serial number, or, through user input data.

 

 

You missed my point - these other companies will need to implement a way of negating the IR sensitivity issue with current technology sensors. The coding is only an indirect player, it is only the means by which the camera knows exactly which lens is mounted, which is essential for cut filter correction

 

I doubt if a competitor will want to correct for Leica lenses, they will most likely program their camera for their own lenses. Now, how will the camera know which lens is mounted? They may not want to use the 64 Leica codes for their own lenses and they may not be able to use the code system at all because of patent issues. Therefore they will have to invent their own way, it could be by menu as you suggest, or they could re-invent some other method such as a chip.

 

Once this hypothetical camera knows which lens is attached then there is the whole matter of the programming (FW and SW) and filtering; how much of this is legally protected I do not know. There is a lot more to this then simply the coding issue.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[waterlenz]

With the Rokkor 28? Show me this my friend and show me your nice cyan corners as well.

 

 

The pic you posted to which I was referring to above, has a 652 x 433 pixel resolution and thus failed to demonstrate to me the high resolving power of your lens, which seemed to be your point (a bit of a challenge on the web today). I do not have your lens but my 24 Elmarit is without cyan corners!!

[waterlenz]

OK, what rhetoric were you intending? I'm still not following the comment.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I was not surprised at your conclusion, above.

[lct]

The pic you posted to which I was referring to above, has a 652 x 433 pixel resolution and thus failed to demonstrate to me the high resolving power of your lens, which seemed to be your point (a bit of a challenge on the web today). I do not have your lens but my 24 Elmarit is without cyan corners!!

Not my point Tom.

I own 2 Leica 28 already so when i need sharp results i bring the 'cron or the Elmarit asph no problem at all.

But i want to be able to use my little Rokkor as well and i don't want to get cyan corners with it.

I can do it with the R-D1 like in the pic above and below and i would like to do the same with the M8.

BTW the Rokkor's sharpness is not so bad either. Great little lens IMHO.

Larger file here (1.3 MB):

http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/EPSN0107.jpg

[waterlenz]

Not my point Tom.

I own 2 Leica 28 already so when i need sharp results i bring the 'cron or the Elmarit asph no problem at all.

But i want to be able to use my little Rokkor as well and i don't want to get cyan corners with it.

I can do it with the R-D1 like in the pic above and below and i would like to do the same with the M8.

BTW the Rokkor's sharpness is not so bad either. Great little lens IMHO.

Larger file here (1.3 MB):

http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/EPSN0107.jpg

 

Yup, it is a PITA that the 28 Rok does not also use 39mm filters, which is one reason I don't use my 90 Leitz Rok much - it takes A42 caps as well as the pol filter but the slot to lock it on is a different size! I actually considered the 28 Rok once but then found a Leitz 28 (49mm filter version), but sold it when it flared rather badly on me. I'm liking the newer glass, have an Elmarit 28 ASPH on order (since Dec!) for its body size and filter size.

[DaveSee]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Not my point Tom.

I own 2 Leica 28 already so when i need sharp results i bring the 'cron or the Elmarit asph no problem at all.

But i want to be able to use my little Rokkor as well and i don't want to get cyan corners with it.

I can do it with the R-D1 like in the pic above and below and i would like to do the same with the M8.

BTW the Rokkor's sharpness is not so bad either. Great little lens IMHO.

Larger file here (1.3 MB):

http://tinyurl.com/rv7w/EPSN0107.jpg

With respect to your demand(beyond mere desire or inventiveness to adapt a tool appropriately), the R-D1 has an AA filter, and more IR filtration at the sensor, and a crop factor greater than the M8... please explain, what is it you expect of Leica? Seems you are satisfied with the R-D1+Rokkor, no?

 

Not to be combative, I use a ZM 25 and 28 on the M8 often, and with a Heliopan or B+W 486. Do I see "CYAN"? Depends on the f-stop used, and image subjects too. I've never bothered with lens coding or swaping the M-mount on my ZM25, nor filing away that of my CV40. This all ignored by those who shoot 1000 snaps at a wedding, or must upload a JPEG to the bureau ASAP... for these types, the camera must assume a greater role of image processor and meta-data interface: I have that, after I take the shot. Just show me the data as pure as "8-bits"(sic) can show me.

 

rgds,

Dave

[lct]

...I'm liking the newer glass, have an Elmarit 28 ASPH on order (since Dec!) for its body size and filter size.

I like much the Elmarit asph as well.

I have it right now with the current Elmar 50 for the weekend.

A true pleasure to use in good light despite a high contrast that i find easily manageable though.

Now when i bring some lenses of my youth like the 'cron 40, 35 IV or 50 V, the Rokkor 28 makes a better match than the new Elmarit IMHO.

So, to revert to the topic, why wouldn't i have the right to use the Rokkor with the M8 the same way as i do with the R-D1?

Of course i am not that happy to have to 'chimp' in a menu to remove the cyan shift but at least i could use the lens this way with the Leica.

[lct]

...what is it you expect of Leica? Seems you are satisfied with the R-D1+Rokkor, no?

I am more than happy with that combo and my dear Leica lenses but given the quality of the R-D1 i expect every day that it falls apart in my hands to the point where i bought a new R-D1s just to replace it if need be ...

Also it woud be the first time in my life that a Leica body does not meet my requirements. Rather sad for al old Leicaphile isn't it?

[Guest stnami]

So Leica made a great B&W camera now we just have to wait for the colour version

[mwilliamsphotography]

Sorry, I've been really busy and haven't followed all of this very well, so I may be out of place with this observation:

 

The lens recognition issue seems easy to accomplish with firmware. An example of this already exists.

 

When Hasselblad developed the CF adapter for using 500 series Zeiss leaf shutter lenses on the H camera, they were faced with C, CF, and CFi versions without data bus contacts.

 

The Zeiss CFE lenses do have data bus contacts which were done to fill out the focal length range of automatically recognized FE lenses for the 200 series Hasselblad V cameras. So, when using the CF adapter, CFE lenses are immediately recognized by the H camera with no action required by the user.

 

When a C, CF, CFi lens is attached (no contact with the H camera), it automatically triggers the menu selection ... the user selects the lens in use, and shoots. There are even separate options to add extenders to the selection, so the H camera also knows one is being use in combination with the selected lens.

 

Now the CF adapter is a pretty esoteric device, and not a widely used acessory of critical importance. Yet, along with the firmware, it's an elegant solution to a very similar problem.

 

The only addition I would suggest for the Leica M8 would be a menu option to turn it off for those not wanting to select the lens being used.

[lct]

...I use a ZM 25 and 28 on the M8 often, and with a Heliopan or B+W 486. Do I see "CYAN"? Depends on the f-stop used, and image subjects too..

Look at my pic above. I'm not a great photographer alas! but i do like colours a lot and i wanted to catch the contrast between the lock gate and the the old houses with their different grey hues.

Imagine some cyan shift in that... What a shame my friend! Would make me cry if i were not an old pitiless lawyer.

How can we simply find normal that a Leica could do ugly things like that?

I am 60 now, i've bought my first M4 in 1971, i own 5 Leica bodies and i don't remember how many Leica lenses, 19 or 20 or something like that, so what i ask Leica is to be respected by them.

I am a good client of them so if i use a non coded lens from time to time, Leica or not Leica i don't care, i think that my basic right is not to get ugly results with my Leica camera.

Fair enough no?

[sean_reid]

I was not surprised at your conclusion, above.

 

Yes, I was wondering why. Having you been doing some tests as well?

[sean_reid]

The only addition I would suggest for the Leica M8 would be a menu option to turn it off for those not wanting to select the lens being used.

 

Hi Marc,

 

As I envision this feature, it would only be active if the photographer specifically selected it.

 

Best,

 

Sean

[marknorton]

I think perhaps Leica should focus on getting those parts of the camera which do not yet work reliably (AWB, Sudden Death, Reference Pixel Corruption) fixed first.

 

A more appropriate response to the lower lens cost threat from CV and Zeiss is for Leica to produce their own range of more modestly specified (though still high performing), lower cost lenses to compete.

 

Leica have never endorsed the use of Zeiss or CV lenses on their cameras, why should they implicitly do so now by giving access to proprietary corrections for their own lenses? Cyan correction for images taken with Zeiss and CV lenses is best handled in post processing and if the data available to work with is then only 8 bit, "tant pis" as they say in Paris.

 

To be sure, if you're not happy, lobby Cosina or Zeiss to produce their own digital rangefinder. You'll be waiting a long time...

[hankg]

I think perhaps Leica should focus on getting those parts of the camera which do not yet work reliably (AWB, Sudden Death, Reference Pixel Corruption) fixed first.

 

A more appropriate response to the lower lens cost threat from CV and Zeiss is for Leica to produce their own range of more modestly specified (though still high performing), lower cost lenses to compete.

 

Leica have never endorsed the use of Zeiss or CV lenses on their cameras, why should they implicitly do so now by giving access to proprietary corrections for their own lenses? Cyan correction for images taken with Zeiss and CV lenses is best handled in post processing and if the data available to work with is then only 8 bit, "tant pis" as they say in Paris.

 

To be sure, if you're not happy, lobby Cosina or Zeiss to produce their own digital rangefinder. You'll be waiting a long time...

 

No doubt Leica is making reliability issues the priority. Leica producing a lower cost lens line will do nothing to make older Leica lenses more usable or restore the camera to it's original promise. Leica would not be implicitly endorsing anything other then using the profiles for the lenses that they were intended for. What users choose to do with their cameras, is the users own business.

 

Interesting that every request for a feature that for many would be an improvement is met with the response of "if you don't like it as it is now why don't you get lost. Buy something else". But it's obvious that most of those requesting the feature do like the camera as it is and it has been the feedback of these same users that has enabled Leica to address problems that could have sunk the camera. Had everyone taken up Marks invitation to go elesewhere if you don't like it as it is when the first problems appeared the M8 users group would be very small indeed.

[Guest tummydoc]

I think perhaps Leica should focus on getting those parts of the camera which do not yet work reliably (AWB, Sudden Death, Reference Pixel Corruption) fixed first.

 

Hear hear, with this I do agree wholeheartedly. But after that, a menu-selectable detection would be nice, as would a simple EXIF-tag-maker combined with a cyan correction slider in C1. Some people here can't or won't comprehend that it isn't merely Cosina or Zeiss or Ukraine lenses that are being impeded, it's the entire body of Leitz glass other than those on the list of "codables". It's wonderful if there are newcomers attracted to the M8 and purchasing a lens kit (new, or selecting used ones from those that can be coded), however a grand portion of M8 buyers and potential buyers are long-time users and collectors with a bevvy of older Leitz glass. Nikon was coerced and/or cajoled and/or browbeaten and/or embarrassed (by the fact there was more functionality using Canon bodies with adaptors) into providing meter function for non-CPU lenses in the D200 and concurrent with that they provided the menu-driven selection. It's just slow and inconvenient enough to not be a perfect alternative to CPU lenses yet functional enough to satisfy people with lots of older lenses. Allowing similar access to the cyan correction for older Leitz lenses will not hamper sales of new Leica lenses, or even sales of coding, to any great degree. The number of people who will rather go into a menu and select their [codable] lens each time they fit it, rather than pay $125 to have it coded, will be insignificant. And by the same token, needing to hand-code adaptors will not force people who best afford $300 Cosina lenses to pillage their retirement accounts in order to buy $3000 Leica lenses.

[johnjs]

....

To be sure, if you're not happy, lobby Cosina or Zeiss to produce their own digital rangefinder. You'll be waiting a long time...

 

I'm not so sure about that, Mark. I highly doubt that Zeiss would have developed the entire ZM series of lenses and the ZI body as an end unto itself. I'm aware of Zeiss' statements that they are waiting for digital capture to mature to the point at which it equals film, at least to their criteria. The M8 sort of puts that argument away. My guess is the ZI digital rangefinder body is proceeding in the design/conceptual stage.

 

By the way, absolutely outstanding work on your disassembly thread, you certainly went above and beyond there!

 

best-John

[sean_reid]

I think perhaps Leica should focus on getting those parts of the camera which do not yet work reliably (AWB, Sudden Death, Reference Pixel Corruption) fixed first.

 

The development of a lens selection menu item is not especially difficult. It really just provides a manual way of activating programming that is already automatically triggered by the lens codes. As such, its addition should do little to impede work on the other M8 problems. The improvements in the M8 are not necessarily made in serial fashion...several can be researched, tested and released simultaneously.

 

So deciding to implement a manual lens selection menu is likely to have little influence on the speed of progress on the other items. That said, I think the highest priority item should be finding the cause of cameras that freeze up and cannot be recovered. But then again, each photographer will have his or her own sense of what the biggest priorities should be. Thankfully, simultaneous R&D is certainly possible at Leica.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[sdai]

When a C, CF, CFi lens is attached (no contact with the H camera), it automatically triggers the menu selection ... the user selects the lens in use, and shoots. There are even separate options to add extenders to the selection, so the H camera also knows one is being use in combination with the selected lens.

This is exactly what we're talking about, Marc ... it's only that most people have't fully relaized why Hasselblad is doing this and why Leica should also do this - which in Hasselblad's case that's to use the DAC feature (Digital Auto Correction), in Leica's case, we want Leica's in camera correction support as many lenses (the Leica models, discontinued ones, M39s, etc. at least) as possible.