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The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

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#21 mjh

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 16:49

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My guess is that the only thing a full frame NEX would have in common with the E mount predecessors would be the name.

Let’s hope so; otherwise the system would be crippled from the start. But I would drop the name as well then – why call it Nex when it is a different system?

Anyway, if Sony should create a new mount they wouldn’t see a need to deal with Italian flag issues; they could design the new lenses so there are no issues. Photographers trying to adapt their M lenses would be on their own then. Frankly I don’t expect anything like a solution to the Italian flag problem coming from Sony.
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#22 jaapv

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:05

The timeframe on SAR appears to be more than slightly optimistic too. Leica has a considerable expertise in DRF design, control over the sensor, good ties with giant companies like Fujitsu and Jenoptik and still had/has a rocky road to run to get the production of the M running smoothly..
Designing a full-frame short register mirrorless is a bit more demanding than shoehorning an APS-C sensor into a point-and shoot body or designing a single lens- FF sensor unit.
I doubt that Sony has any interest in adding exotic Leica lenses to their complications.

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#23 MirekE

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:10

Yes, but their solution wil likely not work for Leica (and Zeiss ZM) lenses; they can design their own lenses to avoid the problem on their own sensor- it is ja matter of choosing specific compromises when designing the whole system.
And, of course, commission Zeiss to make a premium series of NEX lenses.

Edit: As Michael explains, it will be bit of a challenge. They might run into a choice between overall lens quality like vignetting and CA vs telecentricity.


In the previous response I assumed that they would want to keep the lens size small. I don't know enough about lens design, but wouldn't lens design that fixes the problem require large size or extreme glass types that are super expensive to manufacture and process? I would think fixing it on the sensor level would be cheaper for Sony in the long run. Well, apart from fixing it in software, which Sony can do better with their lenses knowing f-stop and focal length.
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#24 jaapv

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:29

Sony has plenty of Minolta expertise to design lenses, not to mention their connection with Zeiss. I would expect them to come up with something pretty good in that line.

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#25 dwbell

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:33

It's more like a great time for gear-heads. For photographers all this is irrelevant.

Mike


Hahaha! I'm comfortable with the coexistence of both art and craft in my work.

#26 cookedart

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:33

Yes, but their solution wil likely not work for Leica (and Zeiss ZM) lenses; they can design their own lenses to avoid the problem on their own sensor- it is ja matter of choosing specific compromises when designing the whole system.
And, of course, commission Zeiss to make a premium series of NEX lenses.

Edit: As Michael explains, it will be bit of a challenge. They might run into a choice between overall lens quality like vignetting and CA vs telecentricity.


Ya, I'm sure they could go with a crazy curved microlens array or something of that nature, but right now, the NEX backfocus register is even shorter than an M. Judging by their APS-C lineup, Sony isn't very good at making good lenses, and even the better ones (like the 24mm 1.8) are large, and just ok. I'd want them to release it just to see what happens, especially since their sensor design is so good, but I'm willing to bet it won't have an optical viewfinder with which you can focus.

#27 Rick

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 17:54

Michael, I think Stephen is right, this is Photoshop. I don't have my RX1 with me here to measure but the mount is huge on the RX1. I think Sony understands this.

I understand the Zeiss lens is almost glued to the RX1 sensor, but if Sony could come up with a set of Zeiss lenses that would work on a FF camera as well as my RX1 then Leica would eventually have competition and some would buy Sony. But, how long would it take for Sony to offer lenses like my WATE? And, how big would they be?

By the time Sony has these offerings, what will the Leica M technology be like? Heck, 5-10 years from now Leica will probably offer such innovations as a black chrome finish. You'd have to stick with Leica then.

Edited by RickLeica, 09 July 2013 - 18:14.

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#28 douglasf13

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:04

Sony will likely need to drastically change their sensor technology if they want to deal with M lenses, and I'm not talking about just very wide M lenses. The cutoff point will probably be around the 50mm lens mark, depending on the lens design. The current VG-900 is not good with many M lenses, and even the NEX-7, which is aps-c, struggles with 35mm M lenses. The issues are both with color shift and softness across the frame.

I just don't see it happening for M lenses. I think this camera will be good for legacy SLR lenses (like Leica R) and, obviously, native AF lenses, but I don't see the performance with M lenses as being good enough to bring anyone over from the M240.

In fact, if Sony doesn't use a mount larger than e-mount for a FF NEX, then even the native lenses will have to be relatively gigantic. Think current DSLR lenses + adapter.

The RX1/RX1R is Sony's compact FF solution, because they could tailor make a very sophisticated lens with an absolutely enormous rear element that sits a few millimeters from the sensor. This won't be adaptable to an interchangeable version, at least without making the mount gigantic, although you'd still have issues with the rear element being so close.
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#29 mjh

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:13

Michael, I think Stephen is right, this is Photoshop.

Of course it is. The point is that this montage comes close to what a FF Nex would look like. And it illustrates pretty well why I would prefer Sony to create a new system with a new mount, rather than trying to shoehorn a FF sensor into a Nex.

I think Sony understands this.

I suppose so. And if they do, it implies they can a design a FF EVIL system where large incident angles simply don’t occur. And if they don’t occur with lenses designed for this system, there is no need to spend any thought on how to solve these issues for those trying to adapt third-party lenses. If it works, fine. If it doesn’t then, well, there you are.

While we don’t know whether Leica will eventually manage to solve all the Italian flag issues, there is absolutely no reason to expect that anyone else will. At least Leica has an incentive to try.

Edited by mjh, 09 July 2013 - 19:24.

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#30 dwbell

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:14

By the time Sony has these offerings, what will the Leica M technology be like? Heck, 5-10 years from now Leica will probably offer such innovations as a black chrome finish. You'd have to stick with Leica then.


I've heard from a source that early prototypes of an M240 with 'Leica script' on the top plate are due to be tested early 2015. Just goes to show how far they think ahead! Mind numbing when you consider the logistics...
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#31 douglasf13

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 19:23

Of course it is. The point is that this montage comes close to what a FF Nex would look like. It illustrates pretty well why I would prefer Sony to create a new system with a new mount, rather than trying to shoehorn a FF sensor into a Nex.


You're exactly right, Michael, and that image isn't Photoshopped. The VG-900 camcorder already has an e-mount and FF sensor, and it is "shoehorned" in, as you say: http://cdn.asia.cnet...rame_emount.jpg

The problem is that, you can have a smallish mount diameter (like Leica and Nikon F,) and you can have a short registration distance, but having BOTH a small mount and super short registration distance is going to be a mechanical interference issue, unless Sony radically changes their sensor design (the VG-900 is pretty awful with a lot of M lenses.)

Here are a couple of great explanations from a guy that works in the industry:

NEX PRO announcment on Sept. 12th ? - FM Forums

https://www.fredmira...8278/0#10956448

Either these native Sony lenses are going to be very long, or Sony will have to make a much larger mount. Either way, I don't expect great performance from M lenses. It could be, however, great for R lenses.

Edited by douglasf13, 09 July 2013 - 19:34.

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#32 k-hawinkler

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 20:19

The Sony RX1R Review - Medium format quality in your pocket. | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS


IMHO Sony can make a better camera, just like Fuji did, by taking advantage of a new lens mount and not be constrained by the M bayonet.

Edited by k-hawinkler, 09 July 2013 - 20:23.

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With best regards, K-H.

#33 Rick

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 21:34

I've heard from a source that early prototypes of an M240 with 'Leica script' on the top plate are due to be tested early 2015. Just goes to show how far they think ahead! Mind numbing when you consider the logistics...


Wow, makes the head spin just trying to imagine such advancements. My biggest worry is wondering if Leica will offer a removable base plate as an accessory once the M drops the base plate design and goes to a trap-door battery/memory card design. I know, I'm thinking way ahead...
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#34 k-hawinkler

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 21:40

Truly revolutionary thoughts! Simply stunning in their depths!
With best regards, K-H.

#35 Guest_tanks_*

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 23:03

Whether Sony even wishes ...
I have no complaint about delivery (five weeks), and others around me are reporting Ms arriving that were ordered sometime this spring. There is quite some movement in the "deliveries" thread too.
It appears we are entering a post-glacial era now ;)


You were lucky (or had some pull to jump ahead of others), I ordered, and fully paid for mine coming on 5 months (not weeks) now, still no M. Most orders that are coming through on the deliveries thread still seem to be those from September 2012.

#36 jaapv

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 00:53

I did not jump ahead of anybody. I just chose my dealer well.
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#37 Guest_tanks_*

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:02

Yes, you did obviously. I was naive. When B&H had end of February as delivery date on their web site, I actually believed them, and Leica. So, put my order off until a few weeks before the advertised delivery date, and then placed it.

Until the M every Leica I had (M6 and M8) were instant orders, so I had no reason to believe that Leica would fail to deliver the M as promised. Even the MM I got later on was an instant order.

#38 IkarusJohn

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:30

Anyway, if Sony should create a new mount they wouldn’t see a need to deal with Italian flag issues; they could design the new lenses so there are no issues. Photographers trying to adapt their M lenses would be on their own then. Frankly I don’t expect anything like a solution to the Italian flag problem coming from Sony.


Is this really the right way to look at this?

Leica has, largely, resolved the Italian Flag issues with the M9 with their own lenses. There will be exceptions to this, but let's accept that the Italian Flag issue can be resolved with the M mount and register distance of M lenses.

Now, I accept that if Sony decide to do a full frame interchangeable lens version of the RX-1 (to avoid Nex discussions), they will need to come up with a new camera and new lenses, rather than trying to shoehorn a full frame sensor into the Nex format and E mount.

Sony is a leading sensor manufacturer, and they are teamed up with Zeiss, who already make M mount lenses. What's stopping Sony from using the M mount on your analysis? The lenses are already there, and Sony makes sensors - surely they have the skill to make the micro lenses on their sensors and to write the software to deal with the Italian Flag?

So, let's compare the two options:

- a new mount, new camera, new lenses. It could be a very good thing, but wouldn't the required form factor (size) push them towards the same sort of design decisions Leica made back in 1953 when they came out with the M3?

- a new camera using the M mount (perhaps with their own branded Zeiss AF lenses, and zooms), thereby attracting existing Leica M & R lens owners (not a huge number, but not insignificant either) and boosting Zeiss ZM mount lenses.

As I understand the technical barrier to this, it is a sensor and software issue. I would expect Sony to have greater expertise in these fields than Leica - for the M9 they subcontracted to Kodak and Jenoptik, and for the M (typ 240) to CMOSis and brought the software coding in-house (if I understand correctly).

Put it another way, which is more appealing or less costly and less hassle for Sony. A completely new system, or sensor and software design, which they are apparently good at?

Against this, Sony do have a history of trying too introduce their own standards rather than using existing standards - how many times have they released products with their own storage media, their own batteries and adapters. Drives me crazy, and has put me off Sony on more than one occasion.

Cheers
John
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#39 CheshireCat

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:18

Sony is in no better position to deal with the inevitable Italian flag issues than Leica is, and they have less incentive to try.


Sony has the best sensor technology on the market. Expect surprises.

Why would Sony care whether you could use third-party lenses?


They don't, but ray angle is an issue for any company who wants to sell their own compact lenses.

#40 Rick

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 04:38

Sony has the best sensor technology on the market. Expect surprises.


Oh, I love surprises. Statements like this are so exciting.



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