The Sony A7 thread [Merged]

[jaapv]

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That makes no sense at all. Sony is in the business of selling sensors. They would not develop one when they could sell it to Leica, yet would do so now to help Leica sell lenses?

 

There is no way they can see Leica M as a competitor, a completely different price range.

 

I might remind you Sony has often sold sensors to Leica, and to Nikon even when the cameras were in direct competition.

[Guest borge]

That makes no sense at all. Sony is in the business of selling sensors. They would not develop one when they could sell it to Leica, yet would do so now to help Leica sell lenses?

 

There is no way they can see Leica M as a competitor, a completely different price range.

 

I might remind you Sony has often sold sensors to Leica, and to Nikon even when the cameras were in direct competition.

 

A FF Sony unit with their superb sensors would be a very attractive backup to a M240/MM/M9. For many people owning several M cameras (backup camera, MM + M240 for color, etc) is simply just too expensive. Take me as an example: I own the MM. I miss color sometimes but I cannot justify purchasing a M240 for the few color shots that I take. I can afford it but I'd rather put those funds into a vacation, a motorcycle, a new guitar, a new amplifier, or, well.. You get the idea. A FF Sony unit that would play nicely with my M lenses would be a very interesting alternative though, as it would probably end up being a bit cheaper than the RX1 which is already costs under half the cost of a M240 alone.

 

If such a camera would appear on the market I'm afraid that it would totally destroy the 2nd hand value/market of the M9's though, as most people would be more comfortable with buying a new camera. That is IF it performed well with M lenses. The few times I want color shots I usually take nature, landscape, product, and such shots... And honestly in those situations I would be 100% comfortable by only using live view to compose.

 

The market for a FF Nex as the main camera for M mount lenses is small, but I'm very sure that the market for a FF Nex as a backup or alternative to existing M owners are in fact very big if the camera performed well with existing M lenses. M-Mount adapters are selling well for OM-D's and other cropped sensor cameras that necessarily doesn't perform well with M lenses, so... But using the lenses on APS-C/MFT sensors messes up the perspective/focal length of each lens. On a FF alternative however you would get exactly the same perspective/focal length as you would on your main M.

 

The RX1 has sold much more than Sony expected it to considering it doesn't have a viewfinder and it is a very expensive camera (for being a compact Sony). But it still sells well and people love it. Hopefully this got Sony thinking about existing enthusiast markets as well.

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[dwbell]

That makes no sense at all. Sony is in the business of selling sensors. They would not develop one when they could sell it to Leica, yet would do so now to help Leica sell lenses?

 

There is no way they can see Leica M as a competitor, a completely different price range.

 

I might remind you Sony has often sold sensors to Leica, and to Nikon even when the cameras were in direct competition.

 

Well, I wouldn't want to be accused of being a Sony armchair CEO, would I? So I'll just see what the market brings.

[lct]

So Sony would develop a special FF sensor and/or microlenses to avoid vignetting and color shifts with M wides? Wishful thinkings if you ask me.

[Guest borge]

So Sony would develop a special FF sensor and/or microlenses to avoid vignetting and color shifts with M wides? Wishful thinkings if you ask me.

 

As you say there's a slim-to-none chance of that happening, realisticly. But at the same time the camera could probably sell very well as a secondary/starter/backup alternative for using modern and legacy M lenses. There is already MANY people that use M lenses on cropped sensor bodies with adapters.

 

But yea, wishful thinking.

[jaapv]

A FF Sony unit with their superb sensors would be a very attractive backup to a M240/MM/M9. For many people owning several M cameras (backup camera, MM + M240 for color, etc) is simply just too expensive. Take me as an example: I own the MM. I miss color sometimes but I cannot justify purchasing a M240 for the few color shots that I take. I can afford it but I'd rather put those funds into a vacation, a motorcycle, a new guitar, a new amplifier, or, well.. You get the idea. A FF Sony unit that would play nicely with my M lenses would be a very interesting alternative though, as it would probably end up being a bit cheaper than the RX1 which is already costs under half the cost of a M240 alone.

 

If such a camera would appear on the market I'm afraid that it would totally destroy the 2nd hand value/market of the M9's though, as most people would be more comfortable with buying a new camera. That is IF it performed well with M lenses. The few times I want color shots I usually take nature, landscape, product, and such shots... And honestly in those situations I would be 100% comfortable by only using live view to compose.

 

The market for a FF Nex as the main camera for M mount lenses is small, but I'm very sure that the market for a FF Nex as a backup or alternative to existing M owners are in fact very big if the camera performed well with existing M lenses. M-Mount adapters are selling well for OM-D's and other cropped sensor cameras that necessarily doesn't perform well with M lenses, so... But using the lenses on APS-C/MFT sensors messes up the perspective/focal length of each lens. On a FF alternative however you would get exactly the same perspective/focal length as you would on your main M.

 

The RX1 has sold much more than Sony expected it to considering it doesn't have a viewfinder and it is a very expensive camera (for being a compact Sony). But it still sells well and people love it. Hopefully this got Sony thinking about existing enthusiast markets as well.

How can the backup market be huge, given Leica's miniscule market share?

[Guest borge]

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How can the backup market be huge, given Leica's miniscule market share?

 

There are many, many M lenses in the world. A full frame, modern and decently priced alternative that took M lenses would probably sell well considering the market share.

 

Think outside of the Leica box for a minute. There are many excellent Zeiss, Voigtländer +++ M-mount lenses on the market as well. Many customers lust after using M-mount lenses, both modern and classical, but they just can't justify the insane costs of a new Leica camera to be able to, mainly because they are hobbyists/enthusiasts with limited budgets.

 

I would really welcome such a camera to the market. It would enable many users to use M mount lenses on a full frame alternative that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

 

I personally have many friends (casual hobbyists) thare are in this exact situation.

[jaapv]

I have no numbers for Zeiss etc, but Leica's total lens production over the last ninety years is about 3.5 million. I guess that would be in the same order as the Japanese interchangeable lens production of one year...

Hopefully 15.000 Ms this year? Less than a day's production for Canon.

Edited July 10, 2013 by jaapv

[mmradman]

I have no numbers for Zeiss etc, but Leica's total lens production over the last ninety years is about 3.5 million. I guess that would be in the same order as the Japanese interchangeable lens production of one year...

Hopefully 15.000 Ms this year? Less than a day's production for Canon.

 

As Borge said think for a second outside Leica box. There is an army of enthusiast photographers who eagerly await affordable full frame alternative to Leica M camera. Popularity of NEX, Fuji-X, Micro three-four and few others is testament to that.

 

I know a guy who bought and sold M typ 240 (also owned S2 at one point) as he was not happy with EVF implementation. He is currently using his M lens collection on NEX5N and claims it is better for him than any M camera so far.

[krooj]

While this discussion is on: has there been any news on Ricoh updating the GXR A12?

[01af]

Don't Canon do this with their EF/EF-S lenses though?

No, that's an entirely different thing. Because the Canon EF mount—as well as other SLR mounts such as Nikon F or Sony Alpha—originally were designed as 35-mm-format full-frame mounts. The lenses for APS-C format came later. Downsizing the image format for a given lens mount is always easy ... but for a 35-mm-format full-frame NEX camera, you'd need to upsize—which is anywhere between impossible and difficult (i. e. will require lots of unwanted compromises and half-baked concessions).

[jaapv]

As Borge said think for a second outside Leica box. There is an army of enthusiast photographers who eagerly await affordable full frame alternative to Leica M camera. Popularity of NEX, Fuji-X, Micro three-four and few others is testament to that.

 

I know a guy who bought and sold M typ 240 (also owned S2 at one point) as he was not happy with EVF implementation. He is currently using his M lens collection on NEX5N and claims it is better for him than any M camera so far.

And my point is that it is a narrow view to think Leica is the centre of the photograpic world. We may think "there are so many" but in reality we are a miniscule group of nerdy enthusiasts. Dozens maybe in your personal circle, but you forget about the millions out there, who have no interest in Leica whatever. I would say that is the proper thinking outside the Leica box.

[IkarusJohn]

I have no doubt you're right, Olaf.

 

However, unless I misunderstand, Jaap's logic is a bit backwards - Sony won't make a version of the RX-1 that takes interchangeable lenses because there are not enough M lenses and they don't have the skill to make a sensor for that register distance?

 

Let's look at what they currently make - a very good 35mm fixed lens full frame camera. What they need to add to that is a mount, and to design a sensor that works well with more than one fixed lens. I think they are capable of both, and Zeiss has lots of experience making interchangeable lenses in 35mm format with a short register distance.

 

Oh, I should add that I had a Nex-5n, and it had no problem with Leica wides, so your comment above is not quite accurate - I didn't have colour shift to worry about even with my 15 Distagon ... It seems the APS-C sensor in the 5n has micro lenses - that's one of the reasons I bought it.

 

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[1JB]

I don't see the use of interchangeable third party lenses as something Sony would be interested in designing around. It's enough of a challenge for the NEX lineup if it goes full frame. According to Sony :"The RX1 can adjust the image sensor and the lens by a thousandth of a millimeter to set them perfectly parallel and eliminate distortion. Such precision is unavailable in single lens reflex cameras because their sensors and lenses are produced separately,..." It seems it's equally challenging in the M system. Leica acknowledged when it launched the M that it could not use an off the shelf sensor due to the unique challenges presented by the M lenses.

[k-hawinkler]

There can be some red cast for 35, 28, and 21 mm Leica lenses on my Sony NEX-5N and NEX-7.

However, the WATE 16-18-21 mm seems to work just fine on them as it does on my OM-D E-M5.

So for one expensive lens, the WATE, and one expensive camera, the M9, at least initially, and

two inexpensive ones I get the following virtual 135 film equivalent focal length uses, namely:

 

M9: 16, 18, 21 mm

NEX: 24, 27, 32.5 mm

OMD: 32, 36, and 42 mm

 

Additionally, the OMD gives me image stabilization for all my M lenses.

I can live with that.

 

The sbove mentioned inexpensive cameras also permit the use of my R lenses,

including important extra reach at the tele end.

 

So, if Sony came out with an inexpensive FF NEX, in particular one with considerably higher resolution sensors,

I would be very interested in acquiring one, even if it didn't work well with WA Leica lenses.

Such a FF NEX would also reduce my need to get a Leica M240, certainly for longer focal lengths.

[IkarusJohn]

Yet that is exactly what Sony have done with the Nex. Whatever lens mount they develop. Someone will make an adapter.

 

Their decision to make such a camera (or not) will have little to do with Leica. It will be based on the success of the RX-1 and the NEX. As Jaap says, such a camera will sell vastly more than any impact Leica lens owners may have on it.

 

Rebranded Zeiss lenses and in house kit zooms would get them going. It wouldn't be cheap, but it would be cheaper than a Leica. It also moves them away from compacts, which are under pressure from cellphones.

 

PS - sorry, responding to 1JB

 

 

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[mmradman]

And my point is that it is a narrow view to think Leica is the centre of the photograpic world. We may think "there are so many" but in reality we are a miniscule group of nerdy enthusiasts. Dozens maybe in your personal circle, but you forget about the millions out there, who have no interest in Leica whatever. I would say that is the proper thinking outside the Leica box.

 

Leica is not in the centre of photographic world but it has strong gravitational pull.

World of compact system cameras is getting bigger and affordable FF will become one to aim for.

[jdlaing]

And my point is that it is a narrow view to think Leica is the centre of the photograpic world. We may think "there are so many" but in reality we are a miniscule group of nerdy enthusiasts. Dozens maybe in your personal circle, but you forget about the millions out there, who have no interest in Leica whatever. I would say that is the proper thinking outside the Leica box.

 

Blasphemy!

 

 

 

Though true.

[lucerne]

So many opinions and revelations of incompatibilities and problems. Even though it is all speculative, it makes frightening reading (to me at least). However, the contributors have missed out some key issues. Granted, Sony builds for the mass market and has every intention of regularly replacing perfectly good models with different ones incorporating their own systems to achieve their own objectives. In other words their designs are proprietary, so why would they open the door (with the M mount) to existing manufacturers to muscle in on a proprietary market that they can control. But the issue yet to be mentioned is that the mass consumer market drools over specifications and claims of fast super fast autofocus, object tracking and selectable areas of focus and Image Stabilisation. These features are impossible with the Leica M system. Not important to Leica users but definitely "THE" selling point to many photographers including Pro's

I do have both the NEX7 and the M9. I purchased the M9 immediately on returning from a disastrous trip with the NEX7 and Zeiss lenses. The NEX is fiddly, too small, too light, has no custom settings, and is too susceptible to shooting with unintended settings. It fell apart and had to be rebuilt by Sony. The LCD screen degraded with moisture from my hand. The files have to be preprocessed up to DNG and often Cornerfixed. That's not going to suit your average amateur. I haven't used it since it was returned from Sony despite having an adaptor for my Leica lenses. Every process degrades the image in some way and I was very conscious of an unwanted pattern lurking in the depths of each image finally brought into Lightroom

Considering all the technical wants and dreams expressed in this discussion thread, I suggest participants "be careful what you wish for because you might get it!". I most certainly don't want a Nex in Leica clothing. All those menus and configurable buttons? - no thanks!. In fact, I'm happy with my M9-P and I expect to be happy with my next purchase of either an MM or M240. Whatever Leica give me, I'll work with. I no longer want or use my perfectly refurbished NEX7 which I would describe as having no character or presence. If and when I discover that I need a camera body with a mind to replace my own, I'll hire someone to shoot me!

One concessionary point I'll make about Sony is that their repair network delivered a seven day turnaround for the refurbishment, but that hasn't changed my opinion of the product.

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[CheshireCat]

No, that's an entirely different thing. Because the Canon EF mount—as well as other SLR mounts such as Nikon F or Sony Alpha—originally were designed as 35-mm-format full-frame mounts. The lenses for APS-C format came later. Downsizing the image format for a given lens mount is always easy ... but for a 35-mm-format full-frame NEX camera, you'd need to upsize—which is anywhere between impossible and difficult (i. e. will require lots of unwanted compromises and half-baked concessions).

 

You assume that Sony launched a new mount without thinking about the obvious evolution to FF.

I would like to see some rationale in your comment. I mean, something like this:

Will there be a full-frame NEX? | Photoclubalpha