M9 ISO Performance - New Life

[Artichoke]

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Has anyone done similar experiments with Capture One Pro 7?

 

A while back, I did a quick-and-dirty comparison with my M8 and Capture One 6, just between 640, 1250 and 640 with -1.0 stop exposure compensation. I thought the underexposed 640 was a *little* better than the 1250, but it was at the pixel-peeping level. Then again, Capture One 7's low light abilities are supposed to be much better that Version 6.

 

--Peter

I prefer its conversions to LR

pushing ISO 640 does have some advantage, but marginal

I tend to use Auto ISO for many low light circumstances, dialing in 2/3 under exposure

Phase One helped with developing the M8 & Capture One was bundled with its purchase

Capture One works beautifully with the M9

I love the way it allows for control of noise to my taste in RAW conversion & love its elegant implementation of layers

the conversion engine in C1 7 is a huge advance over C1 6

[erl]

+1

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[douglasf13]

Pushing 2500 is probably a bit "seat of your pants" unless the light is good

 

Essentially LR can't recreate a scene from inky black. Bits that are totally black can be recovered but by default you are recovering loads of noise at that level.

 

Pushing works well where the objects have some light on them and you are ok with blacked out bits of the photo remaining fairly dark.

 

The best camera I have used for ISO performance is oddly enough the Fuji X100s (better then the RX1 IMHO), but there is loads of grain at 3200 if you want detail.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

It's just a metering trick. I owned both of these cameras, and Fuji tricks one into thinking their high ISO is better than it is by overstating ISO by nearly a full stop. Try comparing the X100s at ISO 3200 to the RX1 at about ISO 2000 for a more valid comparison.

Edited September 26, 2013 by douglasf13

[douglasf13]

Lovely photo. Was the young lady wearing lipstick?

 

That was the bigger problem for me with the M9. I was constantly battling magenta splotchiness in skin tones under artificial light.

[Guest malland]

...pushing ISO 640 does have some advantage, but marginal...

In my experience it's anything but marginal, providing not only somewhat less noise but also greater dynamic range. And setting the exposure in the post-processing is a great advantage for night photography in dark streets with disparate types of bright lights from various directions, when metering can be problematic, particularly with wide-angle lenses, such as in the two pictures below. Indeed, rather than being marginal, I think that the "Shoot at ISO 640 and push in post" post technique transforms the M9 into an excellent high-ISO camera, considering also its color rendition. With regard to CaptureOne vs LR5, the latter's new Radial Tool can be used easily for dodging, which I've done on the main subjects in the pictures below (using the Exposure rather than the Shadow slider) — as far as I know Capture One has no tool for dodging and burning. (Sorry for reposting these pictures here, but I feel that the point I'm making his to be made with showing examples of what I'm stating.)

 

 

M9-P | Elmarit-21 ASPH | ISO 640 pushed 1.7 stops on main subject | f/2.8 | 1/45 sec

Bangkok

 

 

 

 

M9-P | Elmarit-21 ASPH | ISO 640 pushed 4.2 stops on main subject | f/4.0 | 1/60 sec

Bangkok

 

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

Edited September 26, 2013 by malland

[Ozkar]

That was the bigger problem for me with the M9. I was constantly battling magenta splotchiness in skin tones under artificial light.

 

I was getting funky looking lips in all sorts of lighting conditions with my M9.

[erl]

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I was getting funky looking lips in all sorts of lighting conditions with my M9.

Have you considered that the 'all sorts of lighting' might be responsible, at least in part, for the 'funky looking lips'? Colour is directly influenced by lighting.

[agprkr]

I was getting funky looking lips in all sorts of lighting conditions with my M9.

 

Me too. That is one thing that drove me crazy with the M9. Glad I was not the only one to notice this. Kids would look like they had lipstick on. I noticed this in various conditions including outside in cloudy conditions.

[Guest malland]

How long ago was that? I have not have that problem, but I got my M9-P only in this February. I don't know the history of firmware improvements and improvements in color rendition with the M9. Currently, the only issue I see is getting "electric blues" at night under some types of fluorescent light, but that is easily fixable in LR4/5 by selective controls.

 

If anyone currently has lip color issues now, the things is to start a thread showing the problem in a photo, so that other people can see and offer a solution.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

Edited September 27, 2013 by malland

[erl]

It is wise to have the latest firmware (1.196) installed. Some users have in the past reported minor issues with that firmware and have reverted to earlier versions, myself included. However, after a recent rebuild of my camera in Solms, it returned with 1.196 and has been fine. I do have copies of earlier firmware(s) if anyone needs or wants them. I can email to you.

 

As Mitch reports, électric' blues can be a problem, but workable with.

[nggalai]

Has anyone done similar experiments with Capture One Pro 7?

 

A while back, I did a quick-and-dirty comparison with my M8 and Capture One 6, just between 640, 1250 and 640 with -1.0 stop exposure compensation. I thought the underexposed 640 was a *little* better than the 1250, but it was at the pixel-peeping level. Then again, Capture One 7's low light abilities are supposed to be much better that Version 6.

 

--Peter

 

Yes, I’ve been using this technique since January or February, M9+CO7. Works as you’d expect it, albeit the final results aren’t as “clean” as you can achieve with Lightroom 4 or 5. But then, I don’t mind some noise in low-light.

 

What Mitch/Malland observed in that other thread holds doubly true for Capture One: You need some contrast in the scene; if brightness distribution is too flat, results can be horrible with Capture One while still passable-to-horrible with Lightroom. If there’s enough contrast, no worries even with CO. The attached image was taken at ISO 500 and pushed by 1EV – I needed f/4 with the 90mm, so there you are.

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[douglasf13]

It is wise to have the latest firmware (1.196) installed. Some users have in the past reported minor issues with that firmware and have reverted to earlier versions, myself included. However, after a recent rebuild of my camera in Solms, it returned with 1.196 and has been fine. I do have copies of earlier firmware(s) if anyone needs or wants them. I can email to you.

 

As Mitch reports, électric' blues can be a problem, but workable with.

 

That firmware has been out for over a year. Nothing new there.

 

The magenta blotchiness in skin tones has been a known m9 issue for years. Playing with WB and color sliders usually helps, but it often still looks a little weird to me.

 

Another thing to be aware of, when pushing ISO like so many of us do, is that the in-camera vignetting correction may do some weird things when pushed too far. I usually only use this method with lens coding turned off in the camera.

Edited September 27, 2013 by douglasf13

[pklein]

Here's a quick and dirty comparison at 100% with an M8 and Capture One v.7.

ISO 640 pushed one stop (top) vs. 1250 (bottom):

 

ISO 640 pushed two stops (top) vs. 2500 (bottom)

 

Dim tungsten light, fixed tungsten white balance "as shot" in camera. Sharpening and color NR was at default, and Luminance NR was turned off to see what we're really getting.

 

640 pushed +1 looks decidedly better than 1250 to my eyes. Quite usable, actually. I just got another stop out of my M8. Thanks to all of you for getting me to revisit this.

 

I wouldn't want to use either 2500 or 640 pushed +2 if I had a choice. The pushed 640 does look a little better, and might do in B&W with some careful NR and black point fussing.

 

If I recall correctly, C-1 v.7 shows the same default NR numbers for all ISOs. "50" is nominal, but behind the scenes it's applying more NR when the camera ISO is higher. My rule of thumb at higher ISOs is to keep the color NR at default, and use 1/4 to 1/2 the default luminance NR. And sometimes I just turn it off, as I prefer a little grit to the plastic look.

 

--Peter

Edited September 28, 2013 by pklein

[colonel]

That firmware has been out for over a year. Nothing new there.

 

The magenta blotchiness in skin tones has been a known m9 issue for years. Playing with WB and color sliders usually helps, but it often still looks a little weird to me.

 

Another thing to be aware of, when pushing ISO like so many of us do, is that the in-camera vignetting correction may do some weird things when pushed too far. I usually only use this method with lens coding turned off in the camera.

 

I boosted contrast in the picture above

however the lips were fair. they were wet she had just been eating

having a look at lightroom it seems that some enhancement might have been done in flickr or your browser colour profile is wrong (I presume you know that each browser has its own profile, you can check this by looking at a picture in your browser and lightroom - they will look completely different)

 

Here is the same picture uploaded here also another close-up with wet lips.

Lips look perfectly natural to me:

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Edited September 28, 2013 by colonel

[tomasis7]

Jim, I am inclined to agree, to a degree, with Bernd -- I think there is an apparent "visual contrast" increase when you push the images. This can easily be corrected in ACR (and I assume Lightroom - since it uses the same engine) using the "contrast" slider.

 

Here is a set of images. The first one is "metered at ISO 640". With manual exposure, each image receives 1 stop less exposure and therefore requires 1 stop more compensation in ACR. The top numbers indicate the "push value" in stops using ACR. I read this as a slight contrast increase which seems noticeable in the face and body. But maybe my eyes ain't so hot Possibly the apparent change in contrast might be due to the reduced DR ?? The shots are with the F1.0 Noctilux, left to right, at F2.0, 2.8, 4, 5.6.

 

she seems like big dof. She smile more at each picture. sell off noctiluxes

[parsod]

Very useful thread this one (at least for me)! Thanks for posting Colonel.

 

Have now tried some practical shooting at ISO 640 and then pushing to about 1600-2000 in LR 5 with very good results. Before I never went much higher than 640 and did not increase exposure in post but this made my M9 a more versatile tool:)

[Jamie Roberts]

That was the bigger problem for me with the M9. I was constantly battling magenta splotchiness in skin tones under artificial light.

 

...and that is Lightroom and the M9 in a nutshell

[Luke_Miller]

...and that is Lightroom and the M9 in a nutshell

 

My experience as well with both the M8.2 and M9. Corrected with a custom profile using the Adobe DNG Profile Editor. Not an issue (usually) in Capture One, which I tend to prefer for skin tones.

[colonel]

...and that is Lightroom and the M9 in a nutshell

 

Which raw converter is better in your opinion ?

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[Rick]

...and that is Lightroom and the M9 in a nutshell

 

+1

 

Jamie, do you have the new M? What do you think. Not to highjack this thread, so maybe post your experience with the M240 on another thread. If, you don't have it yet, get it. Still love your work.

 

Rick

Edited October 1, 2013 by RickLeica