APO 50mm IQ outweigh not having f1.4?

[jdsvt]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

A chain and its weakest link....

 

I wouldn't waste my time then. Like buying a Ferrari and hiring a chauffeur.

 

Jeff

 

Is that referring to the Smugmug prints? I didn't realize, I haven't bought a quality printer in a long while. I figured with the amount of printing I do, Smugmug did a pretty good job, but obviously I haven't done any comparisons. I was actually thinking about an Epson Stylus Photo R3000 for my next printer, but quite frankly, I wasn't sure it would be as good as what Smugmug can do. Any advice there is appreciated.

[Jeff S]

If you have to ask....

 

Far too much to go into here. Maybe spend some time over on the PP side of the forum.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

Jeff

[jdsvt]

ok, thanks for the help.

[MarkP]

If you need 1.4 for a lot of low-light work then that's that. If it's for reduced DOF then I'd agree with Alain that you should see whether the few centimetres of DOF would make any difference.

 

If you're not printing beyond A2 (i.e. getting into MF territory) I wonder whether you're likely to see a significant benefit with the APO-Summicron in general use. Camera shake and/or pushing ISO even that one stop (compensating for not having f1.4) may more than offset any other benefits of the 50 APO-Summicron.

 

Also, you mention the smaller form factor. The 50 APO-Summicron is smaller than the Summilux ASPH but not by much at all compared with the standard 50 Summicron.

 

50 Summicron

240gm

43.5mm long

53mm max width

 

50 APO-Summicron

300gm

47cm long

~53mm max diameter

 

50 Summilux ASPH

335gm

52.5mm long

53.5mm max diameter

 

 

 

Having said all that, I have the 50 Summilux ASPH, and a 1.0/50 E60 Noctilux (with no interest whatsoever in the 0.95 Noctilux), a Monochrom (and soon an M) so in the future I may yet consider a 50-APO instead of the Summilux, but then again maybe not...

[CaptZoom]

jfsvt,

Find a different lab/ printing facility. Use SmugMug for online sharing, but not for printing. Find a lab that understand color profiles (they should be able to provide profiles for their printing machines/printers), allow for a variety of paper options. If you haven't done so yet, get color profiling hardware and accompanying software (X-Rite has several economical offerings). Do a lot of research on profiles and color management. Upgrade your monitor to a something with a wide gamut, consistent temp, etc (Eizo & NEC come to mind). Get some large prints made, say 16" on the short side. If you aren't doing all if these things, now is a good time to start (certainly before you make your lens purchase). You'll be entering a whole new facet of photography and like all skills, it takes effort and practice to learn. But once you see a nice print of your own capture, there's no turning back. I'll go out on a limb and make a sweeping generalization: it will do more for you than a new lens.

 

I hear the R3000 is a fantastic printer. If you can afford to, the R3880 is much better option. Affordability includes ink ($250 for a full set vs $400-$450).

[otto.f]

For the APO Summicron you might even consider the Epson Pro 7900.

 

But you can also spend your money on an MM and used cheap old Leica lenses. I'm really interested if the Bo-keh of the new APO is much better than the best old Leica lenses in that respect and these old lenses tend to shine more on the MM then formerly on film

[MarkP]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The last two comments are very sensible. There are other areas in your workflow which appear to need improvement. Improving PP skills to get to a better print is most satisfying. It is a very steep learning curve.

 

 

Post-processing with high quality screens and either a good printer or sending out to a good printshop will chew up much of that $7000+, and will probably be much more satisfying than the benefits of a 50 APO-Summicron.

 

I think I've become quite competent at post-processing and printing and knowing their different attributes my skills have have yet to exceeded the limits of ANY of my Leica lenses.

[lct]

...

I have the summicron 50mm ASPH

...

You meant you have the Summicron pre-asph right?

[250swb]

Other than ad hoc times when the perfect conditions are available the small IQ benefits of 'better' lenses are going to be totally lost unless you use a tripod. So if a tripod isn't used already maybe that would be the most productive upgrade? After all, the performance graphs and tests are not done hand held, but with the camera clamped firmly down, so the actual figures are rarely achieved in real life anyway. So get to the limit of your Summilux's performance before thinking you need a APO Summicron.

 

Steve

[jdsvt]

You meant you have the Summicron pre-asph right?

 

Yes, apologize for that, I have the latest Summicron-M 50 mm the non-APO version. So yes, pre-ASPH.

[jdsvt]

Mark P, Captzoom, lct, otto,

All sound advice. Funny you should mention it, I am right now in the process of upgrading to Pentium, Haswell. In my current situation, I do all my PP in Lightroom 3.6 using a laptop. Even though I am a windows guy, I will probably get the 15" Macbook Pro, Retina, Haswell when it comes out and upgrade to Lightroom 5. At the same time I will probably get an Epson printer, I was looking at the R3000. The R3880 is also still in the mix. I enjoy listening to my turntable while processing images, so hence the laptop instead of dedicated PC. I am still considering a larger higher quality monitor that I could interface through HDMI or DVI, but the set up mechanism in my listening room (living room) does not jump out at me.

So in general, that is already in the plan, new laptop (Haswell), best laptop IPS screen I can get, probably Retina, and color calibration software. I was on the fence on the Printer, but his conversation has put it back in the mix.

As far as MM, yes I have been tempted by the Monochrome as well. I think I convinced myself to stay with the M9.

My experience with the M9 is about 9.219, (4,940 with the cron, 4,025 with the Lux) Lightroom processed images, which I currently store in Raw (uncompressed) on my Synology RAID.

The question on whether I can give up a couple cm of DOF, I think I can, the extra stop is more of the concern, I guess it always has been.

[Jeff S]

I'll step back in just to reinforce the notion expressed that there is potentially much more to be gained through PP and printing techniques and materials (including software, papers, inks, profiles, display lighting and conditions, etc, etc) than a lens (or camera) change.

 

But this requires time and effort; it's not plug and play, at least not if you appreciate fine incremental improvements. Even then, print size matters. And understanding color management is key.

 

I recommend spending the dollars and time on this end before spending a whole lot on the APO Summicron. After that, you'll be in a far better place to determine if additional tweaks might be worthwhile.

 

Either that, or consider GAS as the driver.

 

Jeff

[otto.f]

1 stop on an M9 is indeed considerable.

But a Retina screen is not the best choice for printing and I would not recommend it because you keep on fooling yourself. Your iPhone-photoos look just as good as your APO 50 photoos on that screen. But maybe you become happy with a D-lux 6 and a Retina screen and never print or beam, nothing wrong with that, you save 4k for your photo-travels

[Jeff S]

Eizo or NEC are the only two monitors I recommend for serious printing.

 

Jeff

[jdsvt]

Thanks for the suggestions, I will need to come up with a "TV Tray" type option for an external monitor with laptop. That way I can still process in my listening room.

Otto,

Actually, I don't have an Iphone, nor do I currently own a MAC with Retina Screen. I do have an Android Google Nexus 10, and with SmugFolio it is actually a very nice portable screen to show photos. It has an IPS 2560-by-1600 (300ppi) display and with the brightness turned all the way up, the images look quite good for a portable tablet. And yes, I can tell the difference between an Iphone picture on that device and my images.

As you've suggested upgrades are in order all around, and I am on it, unfortunately I will have to wait another month for Haswell laptops with IPS high resolution screens to become mainstream. The "TV Tray" and Eizo or NEC monitors are next. I will probably stick with the Epson R3000, since wireless is also an important consideration in my environment, although the 3880 is tempting.

This conversation has been very helpful and I applaud all of you for taking the time to help a fellow enthusiast.

[otto.f]

Yes I was exaggerating a bit on the iPhone, but ok, good luck!

[CaptZoom]

jdsvt,

 

Laptop screens are notoriously difficult to calibrate. They're fine for making non-color related decisions. If budget is a concern, save the money on the retina display and spend it on an external monitor. Some if the entry level wide gamut monitors have significantly dropped in prices in last few years. I use one from NEC, but I think my next one (when it's time to change/upgrade) will be an Ezio (which are highly recommended on this forum). You've got a very exciting journey ahead.

 

On a side note, you can help me with recommending some turntables. I'll send you a PM.

[alainD]

oh shoot Alan, there we go, now you have me going. Was you experience with the M9? Of course I have read the banter about sensor resolution versus lens resolution. The physics arguments were very interesting. Yes, I started to notice that 3D kind of popping out quality on the APO 50mm cron. I can also get that with the f/1.4 Lux, but I am totally intrigued by your observations about the increased quality of the Bokeh with the APO Cron versus the non APO 50mm Cron ASPH. Might I ask, do you miss your Lux? Or if you still have your Lux, do you ever shoot with your Lux anymore? Or is the APO your goto now, and the rest of your lenses you are pixel peaking evaluating if they measure up.

Thanks for you input, it is appreciated.

 

I sold my M9s and lenses when I mibed to medium format and bought an S with various lenses. After a while and trying a bunch of other small cameras, I missed the M system. So, I got an M240 and was lucky enough to find a 50APO to go with it. I added a 28 Summicron. That is my small go-to kit when I do not want to be on tripod (which I am all the time with the S). And to answer your question, yes I sometimes (not often) miss something faster than f/2, but if I decide to buy something else, I'd be looking at a Noctilux, not a Summilux, to supplement the APO.

 

With all that being said, I want to reiterate I was very lucky to find an APO 50 Summicron, so I jumped on it. If I had not, I would have been very happy with a Summilux, which remains a fabulous lens.

 

Now about the rest of your workflow, I strongly suggest getting a color calibrated wide gamut screen. I have 2 NEC and they are just fine. As of printing, this is the litmus test. How many pictures I had that looked great on screen and terrible printed 17x22...

 

Alain.

[algrove]

I print all my images up to 17x22 (3880), otherwise I have my photo club do the rest up to 48x96 if I want.

 

I own the APO 50 unlike some who offer comment. It IS the best 50 I own on my M9P, MM and M. I also use the 0.95, 1.4 and 50/2.0 that you have plus many other 50's. Summicrons for years have had the reputation of being some of the best Leica lenses.

 

For me it is special and its small size is very appealing. Each lens has its own signature so one must use them all to see what works best for them and which they like the best. If you want to see some recent APO50 images PM me and I can email a few to you.

 

Agree renting is an idea, but you must use it like you say, for some time, to know how it fits into your style.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M