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hankg

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So, here is a realistic scenario, I spend $5,000 on the body and then another $4500 to get 3 summarits....for a hobby. Then a spare battery, handgrip, filter and magnifier for another $600 +. Kit is now over $10,000 (before tax). Gulp......hand wringing and much debate if this whole idea is rational in a world of dslr's.

 

Or, I can initially get into the same system with CV lenses save about $3500 (which takes away much of the angst about even buying the system in the first place) and decide as I go how I should spend that $3500 by perhaps picking my favorite focal length and getting Lux's and Crons which is EXACTLY what I just did and will continue to do as I get more confident in my ability and better understand the characteristics of the different lens choices.

 

I would rather have a customer that starts out slowly than no customer at all.

 

Bingo.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Guy

 

I think the issue can be debated without referring to either the moral or legal entanglements. The fact that Leica has announced the Summarits, and God knows when they will deliver if the 28 Elmarit is any benchmark, still doesn't address the entry level folks. The Summarits will be cheap only by comparison to other leica lenses. They are still very expensive compared to offerings by CV. Folks wanting to get into Rangefinder digital photography may already own CV lenses or, after spending almost $5K for the M8 have limited budget for new lenses. These are the people that, over time, will be buying crons and luxes as their disposable income increases. So I think Leica is missing the boat by not making it easy for these folks to get into the M8 and depend on the legend of the great Leica lenses to get additional money later.

 

Just MHO

 

Woody Spedden

 

Hi Woody,

 

Yes indeed and, just to remind us again, some people have uncoded Leica lenses and some people use Zeiss or CV lenses because they prefer them, even with cost issues aside.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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...As it is currently proposed, only a menu of Leica corrections would be available - which might themselves be subject to change over time - and it would be up to the user to pick the one most appropriate to their needs...

Sounds quite fair to me. I could then think that i could possibly purchase an M8 to fit some of my old and new Leica lenses and my tiny Skopar 21/4P as well.

BTW when will Leica launch small wides like that again?

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Guest guy_mancuso
Guy

 

I think the issue can be debated without referring to either the moral or legal entanglements. The fact that Leica has announced the Summarits, and God knows when they will deliver if the 28 Elmarit is any benchmark, still doesn't address the entry level folks. The Summarits will be cheap only by comparison to other leica lenses. They are still very expensive compared to offerings by CV. Folks wanting to get into Rangefinder digital photography may already own CV lenses or, after spending almost $5K for the M8 have limited budget for new lenses. These are the people that, over time, will be buying crons and luxes as their disposable income increases. So I think Leica is missing the boat by not making it easy for these folks to get into the M8 and depend on the legend of the great Leica lenses to get additional money later.

 

Just MHO

 

Woody Spedden

 

 

No I agree Woody the summarits will help but a 400 dollar lens is certainly cheaper to get in your bag . That part is really not my stance on cutting them folks off at the knee caps. What i am saying though is Leica can not and will not design code for Zeiss and CV glass, they will make it for Leica lenses and it is up to the user to figure out which is best for them but they can't take responsibility on 3rd party glass

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Guest guy_mancuso
So, here is a realistic scenario, I spend $5,000 on the body and then another $4500 to get 3 summarits....for a hobby. Then a spare battery, handgrip, filter and magnifier for another $600 +. Kit is now over $10,000 (before tax). Gulp......hand wringing and much debate if this whole idea is rational in a world of dslr's.

 

Or, I can initially get into the same system with CV lenses save about $3500 (which takes away much of the angst about even buying the system in the first place) and decide as I go how I should spend that $3500 by perhaps picking my favorite focal length and getting Lux's and Crons which is EXACTLY what I just did and will continue to do as I get more confident in my ability and better understand the characteristics of the different lens choices.

 

I would rather have a customer that starts out slowly than no customer at all.

 

Terry your completely missing the issue here. It is not that you need to buy Leica glass. You can buy anything you want but Leica will not make coding for Zeiss and CV glass , they can't legally do that . It is a major infringment legally on those patents. They can only make the code for what they own legally and that is Leica patents. What YOU as the end user can do is use the leica codes and apply them to your CV and Zeiss glass.

They simply can't code for 3rd party lenses and will not do it or Zeiss and CV will sue there pants off. They can only code for leica lenses PERIOD. This is a legal issue. But you as a end user has to make a decision what to buy and what not to buy and use the code for non coded lens is your decision and not leica's responsibility

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To consider a related "open platform" example. Guy and I were talking earlier and both of us have at least considered the purchase of a D3 specifically to use with ZF lenses. I'm an RF guy but I do still need SLRs for some work and I've been using Canon FF since the 1Ds.

 

But, the fact that the D3 should be able to, presumably, work well with ZF lenses makes me seriously consider a possible Nikon body in my future. So Nikon may not sell me any new Nikon lenses right off but they might sell me a body some day and that could lead to some new Nikon lenses down the line as well.

 

In order words, since the Nikon F mount is a fairly open system, I have more choices and this could mean I give Nikon some money down the road. Open systems, long term, are a good idea. Flexibility is good, whether for reasons of cost, lens style preference, etc.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Terry your completely missing the issue here. It is not that you need to buy Leica glass. You can buy anything you want but Leica will not make coding for Zeiss and CV glass , they can't legally do that . It is a major infringment legally on those patents. They can only make the code for what they own legally and that is Leica patents. What YOU as the end user can do is use the leica codes and apply them to your CV and Zeiss glass.

They simply can't code for 3rd party lenses and will not do it or Zeiss and CV will sue there pants off. They can only code for leica lenses PERIOD. This is a legal issue. But you as a end user has to make a decision what to buy and what not to buy and use the code for non coded lens is your decision and not leica's responsibility

 

I guess I have completely missed the boat here. I will put myself in the shoes of the CEO of Zeiss and CV. I have no digital rangefinder. I have great lenses. I have a marketplace that wants to buy lenses and I am going to sue the maker that expands my business because they make it easier to use the lenses on a system that they don't even compete in? That I find really hard to believe. I would be jumping up and down with glee.

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Guy,

I understand and respect your opinion on this but have a look at my post above. Bottom line, if there weren't CV lenses available, I doubt I would have bought the M8 and started down this path. I am a perfect example of how Leica can expand their user base and over time have a long term customer.

 

I decided to buy and put a deposit on an M8 long before the IR issued reared its magenta head. One of the reasons was so I could use CZ glass, which I have happily used for the last 25 years. I am not wedded to CZ. I now have 4 Leica, 2 CZ, 1 CV and one Zenitar in M fit. If I had been more au fait with the IR issue and with the coding debacle, I would probably have bought a Nikon D200, a mixture of Nikon and CZ glass and kept my Contax G2 for a rangefinder. My personal view is that Leica can only be long term winners by either putting manual coding on the M8 or even better, making 6 bit coding an open standard. I think they will end up selling more M8's and those who buy them to use with CZ and CV glass, will like me, end up buying a lot of Leica glass as well (Elmar 50, Noctilux 50 Elmarit 90/2.8 and Tele-Elmar 135). I will almost certainly buy a Summarit 75 as well in due course.

 

Wilson

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Hi Woody,

 

Yes indeed and, just to remind us again, some people have uncoded Leica lenses and some people use Zeiss or CV lenses because they prefer them, even with cost issues aside.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Exactly my situation, and what I have said many times.

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Guest guy_mancuso
I guess I have completely missed the boat here. I will put myself in the shoes of the CEO of Zeiss and CV. I have no digital rangefinder. I have great lenses. I have a marketplace that wants to buy lenses and I am going to sue the maker that expands my business because they make it easier to use the lenses on a system that they don't even compete in? That I find really hard to believe. I would be jumping up and down with glee.

 

 

No what you should be doing is making the mount to work on Leica and partner or pay them a fee with them for there codes. That would be smart and than they can sell even more lenses.

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Just for the record, this is not the reason why Leica dropped the DMR. The real reason is well documented on this forum, and elsewhere.

 

I understand that the per unit cost of the digital adapter for the R9 was too high based on projected sales. And why was that? Because $10K for a non-autofocus camera with a pathetic flash system was NOT selling, while Canon DSLR's were flying off the shelves. Leica's film SLR system is 10 years behind the times, despite the lenses. My point is still valid.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Lloyd that is not the case it was selling very well indeed it was the contract between two companies Imacon and leica than Imacon was bought by Hasselblad. In the long run Leica did not want to extend there contract with them because they were too hard to deliver and deal with.

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Guest tummydoc

Perhaps. But Leica's association with Jenoptik, who performed a similar function with the M8 as Imacon did with the DMR, also ended (badly) but Leica chose to find other resources or assume the duties in-house, rather than simply announce that the M8 has been discontinued. The reason for that, one can surely conjecture, is that the demand for and sales of the M8 continues, whereas the DMR had so nearly approached its terminal sales potential that the cost and effort of regrouping could not be amortised by the small number of units that could expectably be sold. Despite the allusion to strapping a jet engine on-to a horse cart, the DMR was the most innovative item to come out of Leica in decades (the Tri-Elmar nonwithstanding), and reminiscent of the spirit of Leitz that has been absent for decades. And the DMR remains a most capable instrument, despite being rather less than state-of-the-art specification even at the time of its release, and despite the limitations imposed by the eleven-year old body with twenty-year-old technology it was forced to marry.

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Terry your completely missing the issue here.

 

They simply can't code for 3rd party lenses and will not do it or Zeiss and CV will sue there pants off. They can only code for leica lenses PERIOD.

 

Making the profiles for Leica coded lenses selectable manually has nothing to do with Leica coding for, supporting or guaranteeing the function of any 3rd party lens on the M8.

 

The fact that users may use the profiles on 3rd party lenses is their business. Leica would not only not be expected to make any warranties but Leica will be expected to continue to optimize the profiles for the lenses they are intended for with no regard to the impact that might have on non-supported lenses. No one in this thread has suggested otherwise. So it's a non-issue.

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Leica would not only not be expected to make any warranties but Leica will be expected to continue to optimize the profiles for the lenses they are intended for with no regard to the impact that might have on non-supported lenses. No one in this thread has suggested otherwise. So it's a non-issue.

 

But there would certainly be people agonizing at brain-numbing length whether to upgrade to a new version of the firmware which improves the cyan correction (say) for the Leica 24mm at the expense of messing it up for the Zeiss 25mm.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Hank it is the intent that 3rd party should have this support , what i am saying is leica will do it for Leica lenses. 3rd party wants to use it than it is up to them as end users.

 

because we keep hearing i bought CV lenses and i want support

 

Now if Vinay using him as a example say hey i have 30 lenses from my collection of Leica glass and i want support than a different matter and he should get it.

 

There seperate issues here that relate to the same use of the code. Not withstanding the overall M8 user IR issue

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But there would certainly be people agonizing at brain-numbing length whether to upgrade to a new version of the firmware which improves the cyan correction (say) for the Leica 24mm at the expense of messing it up for the Zeiss 25mm.

 

Perhaps, but such is life.

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A manual lens selection option I would support would be for older Leica lenses only, the ones which cannot be coded. Leica could then genuinely say that all Leica M lenses can be supported.

 

If I was buying an M8 from scratch, my inclination would be to think of older Leica lenses as my entry point, not foreign glass.

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because we keep hearing i bought CV lenses and i want support

 

But as we discussed this morning by phone, the real statement is:

 

"I (state your name) have bought or may buy the M8 and wish to see it work as a more open platform."

 

The M film cameras are, essentially, open platform. The question is one of supporting the M8 customer, who has paid (or who might decide to pay) to own this camera.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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because we keep hearing i bought CV lenses and i want support

 

Now if Vinay using him as a example say hey i have 30 lenses from my collection of Leica glass and i want support than a different matter and he should get it.

 

I have'nt heard anyone say we want support in the way you are meaning it. Official Leica support for use of non-supported lenses.

 

It is strictly an issue of giving users control over the existing functionality in the camera. Like having access to the 16 bit data. It's up to them what they do with it. Leica gives you control over your exposure decisions. If you screw up you are not going to go crying to Leica -my picture got overexposed because you let me select my own exposure. It should have been automatically chosen for me.

 

Yes, it's obvious that some will use Leica profiles for their non-Leica lenses. It's also obvious they do so at their own risk. Other's will use it for Leica supported lenses that are not coded. I think that's well understood. I don't think CV users or Vinay with his collectable lenses expect Leica to provide official support for those lenses.

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