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IMHO, Leica should be catering for their own, current lenses first, before using up precious codes for older, more esoteric lenses.

 

I don't think anyone suggested they should expend time and effort and a code on little used lenses.

 

It's just a matter of convenience and more options for their customers, giving them access to profiles that already exist in firmware. Adding a fourth menu option to the 3 existing that says "lens profiles" or something to that effect would have zero impact on those who do not use it..

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Just signed #293--how did I miss this? can some one make regular update posts to keep this thread near the first couple of pages?

 

Best

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So Jaap, how would you feel if you set the camera to lens recognition on + IR and the functionality changed so that, like it or not, a menu was presented to you when you mounted an uncoded lens and you were forced to make a selection, even if it was "none of these".

Mark, I'd probably put it under a user menu.

However I cannot believe it would be implemented this way, more likely there would be complaints that it would be too deeply buried in the menu structure

 

I'm really surprised this has induced such acrimonious debate; it is not as if it were some essential change, it would be just an addition, welcome to some.

On this topic, I find it far more worrying that Leica cannot manage a 48 hour turnaround on lens coding, or even a drive-in service at local distributors. It is not rocket/science or heart surgery.

A sticker solution has been suggested as well, that would take away a lot of the pain. Leica could even make some money out of licensing the patent there.

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Look at the R9- to get the digital form you need to spend $10K for a non-autofocus camera? The Canons kick its a$$ to the point that Leica had to abandon it.

 

Just for the record, this is not the reason why Leica dropped the DMR. The real reason is well documented on this forum, and elsewhere.

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If I were Leica I would not offer such option.

Why?

 

The 6-bit coding is a very good argument to get a Leica lens in stead of Zeiss, CV or whatever.

Now if Leica includes a menue for manually choosing a lens, this will probably lead to the following:

1) Some people, will buy Zeiss/CV lenses instead of Leica lenses. Sales numbers for Leica-lenses would probably decrease

 

2) Some people would use Zeiss and CV-lenses and finally say: Hey, the correction doesnt work 100%. Today Leica can answer: sorry, but there is no correction available for third party lenses.

3)The M8 is designed to be a simple system. The more functions and stuff you integrate the more you get away from that concept.

 

Now if they dont integrate the function in the menue:

Maybe some people wont buy an M8-body because using Zeiss and CV lenses is too complicated. I dont think that it would have a big influence on M8-sales.

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How about we only sell M8's bundled with 2 new lenses! If your to cheap to pay for the lenses you can't have the camera!

 

Different story.

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If I were Leica I would not offer such option.

Why?

 

The 6-bit coding is a very good argument to get a Leica lens in stead of Zeiss, CV or whatever.

Now if Leica includes a menue for manually choosing a lens, this will probably lead to the following:

1) Some people, will buy Zeiss/CV lenses instead of Leica lenses. Sales numbers for Leica-lenses would probably decrease

 

2) Some people would use Zeiss and CV-lenses and finally say: Hey, the correction doesnt work 100%. Today Leica can answer: sorry, but there is no correction available for third party lenses.

3)The M8 is designed to be a simple system. The more functions and stuff you integrate the more you get away from that concept.

 

Now if they dont integrate the function in the menue:

Maybe some people wont buy an M8-body because using Zeiss and CV lenses is too complicated. I dont think that it would have a big influence on M8-sales.

 

 

Or some people would buy an M8 because they can use their favorite lens on it, even end up buying some Leica lenses as well in the end. An open system has never harmed anybody, it is more of win-win.

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So Jaap, how would you feel if you set the camera to lens recognition on + IR and the functionality changed so that, like it or not, a menu was presented to you when you mounted an uncoded lens and you were forced to make a selection, even if it was "none of these".

 

I don't get why anyone would be concerned about the way the menu is implemented. Right now its:

 

On

On + UV?IR

Off

 

add one more: Choose profile

 

that would bring up a list of profiles to choose from. Impact on those with coded lenses would be zero. The profiles are already there s o ther eis nothing to develop other then a menu item.

 

In the end this is not the most important thing in the world. Users are more concerned about reliability and service. There are work arounds. But anything that Leica does to make users lives easier and give users more control and choice will add to Leica's bottom line long term. The idea that the only way Leica can compete with CV and Zeiss is to try and close the system is absolutely wrong. It will have the opposite effect.

 

I have seen many buy a CV to give a focal length a try and if they find it works for them they eventually get the Leica. Many find the cost of the M8 does not leave funds for Leica lenses short term. However they inevitably come back a year or two later for a Leica optic. Companies expend all kinds of expense to get young users to adopt their products so that they have them as customers as their income grows.

 

I'll say what I said before again. CV and Zeiss are great for Leica's business. The RD-1 didn't make a nickel for Epson but it benefited Leica. As top dog in the RF space anything that any company does that increases the RF market, makes it more attractive and brings in new users will accrue to Leica's benefit so long as they continue to innovate and make great tools for photographers.

 

Looking at Leica like some charity case that needs looking after or some exclusive club that has seen better days and needs defending is a left over from Leica's recent and sorry history as a status lifestyle brand. Leica under it's new management is back to making tools for photographers. I've no doubt that they will be successful and the sooner they lose the exclusive club nonsense the better for their business.

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A newbies perspective....

 

I have not gone back and read every post on this thread but I am one of those people that never had a film M camera who had no lenses to start with and I am now an M8 owner (and very much an amateur photographer). Even without buying lenses I think I am a great customer for Leica firstly because I am completely new to the M system and yes, they do need new users. In addition, I still give Leica additional revenue with filters, batteries, magnifiers, handgrip etc. which I assume all have excellent gross margins.

 

Being an enthusiast and new to rangefinders I think it would have been irresponsible for me to simply run out and spend $10,000 or more on lenses. So, I bought a bunch of CV lenses. I can now figure out what focal lengths I enjoy most and make some different lens decisions as I go forward. It is quite daunting to go out an buy an expensive lens without knowing if it is right for me. And by the way, even if I wanted to spend the money trying to actually find some lenses (new from Leica) is quite an ordeal.

 

So, to the topic at hand. This process would be MUCH easier for me if I didn't have to go out and get lenses, get Milich adapters, code them and try and figure all of this out and learn a new system at the same time. Perhaps the thought is the Summarits with be the easy entry for people like me into the M system but it isn't because I also enjoy wide angle.

 

So, I would soooooo welcome a menu for lens selection.

 

Finally, having bought the CV75/2.5 as one of my first lenses I found in framing and my distance from the subject that I like the 50 framelines a lot and bought my first Leica lens last week, a new coded 50 'cron.

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Hi Tom,

 

You wrote:

 

"If I were Leica I would not offer such option.

Why?

The 6-bit coding is a very good argument to get a Leica lens in stead of Zeiss, CV or whatever.

Now if Leica includes a menue for manually choosing a lens, this will probably lead to the following:

1) Some people, will buy Zeiss/CV lenses instead of Leica lenses. Sales numbers for Leica-lenses would probably decrease"

 

A) Menu selection is not the same as coding. Coding is still faster and more convenient to work with.

 

Are you suggesting that the only reason people buy Leica lenses now is for the coding? If that is true, how in the world did they ever sell lenses, in a competitive environment, for the many decades before six-bit coding?

 

"2) Some people would use Zeiss and CV-lenses and finally say: Hey, the correction doesnt work 100%. Today Leica can answer: sorry, but there is no correction available for third party lenses."

 

The correction doesn't even work perfectly for coded Leica lenses. Wait until you see how this is implemented before worrying about the rest.

 

"3)The M8 is designed to be a simple system. The more functions and stuff you integrate the more you get away from that concept."

 

What? The complication (filters, coding, cyan drift, etc.) already exists.

 

I'm amazed by the protectionist attitude for a company that has been competing with others since before many of us were born.

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A newbies perspective....

 

I have not gone back and read every post on this thread but I am one of those people that never had a film M camera who had no lenses to start with and I am now an M8 owner (and very much an amateur photographer). Even without buying lenses I think I am a great customer for Leica firstly because I am completely new to the M system and yes, they do need new users. In addition, I still give Leica additional revenue with filters, batteries, magnifiers, handgrip etc. which I assume all have excellent gross margins.

 

Being an enthusiast and new to rangefinders I think it would have been irresponsible for me to simply run out and spend $10,000 or more on lenses. So, I bought a bunch of CV lenses. I can now figure out what focal lengths I enjoy most and make some different lens decisions as I go forward. It is quite daunting to go out an buy an expensive lens without knowing if it is right for me. And by the way, even if I wanted to spend the money trying to actually find some lenses (new from Leica) is quite an ordeal.

 

So, to the topic at hand. This process would be MUCH easier for me if I didn't have to go out and get lenses, get Milich adapters, code them and try and figure all of this out and learn a new system at the same time. Perhaps the thought is the Summarits with be the easy entry for people like me into the M system but it isn't because I also enjoy wide angle.

 

So, I would soooooo welcome a menu for lens selection.

 

Finally, having bought the CV75/2.5 as one of my first lenses I found in framing and my distance from the subject that I like the 50 framelines a lot and bought my first Leica lens last week, a new coded 50 'cron.

 

Your story is a good example of how a more open system can help M8 sales and bring in more customers long-term. Thanks for posting, some people don't realize how many potential customers like yourself are out there.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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They would actually need two entries in that menu to be able to differentiate between lenses with and without IR filters. The next menu down would either be a single list of about 35 or 40 lenses or else just a list of, say, 10 focal lengths with a further menu of individual lens types for the selected focal length.

 

My own view is that if a coded lens were mounted, the two additional entries on the first menu should be hidden as not relevant.

 

I repeat though, my opinion that there are other aspects of the M8's performance and functionality which need addressing first.

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They would actually need two entries in that menu to be able to differentiate between lenses with and without IR filters. The next menu down would either be a single list of about 35 or 40 lenses or else just a list of, say, 10 focal lengths with a further menu of individual lens types for the selected focal length.

 

My own view is that if a coded lens were mounted, the two additional entries on the first menu should be hidden as not relevant.

 

I repeat though, my opinion that there are other aspects of the M8's performance and functionality which need addressing first.

 

No, they wouldn't need that. The camera already has provisions to specify "off, on and On+IR/UV".

 

I'd suggest that people not worry too much about theoretical implementations of the system. Also, Leica is not unable to multi-task with their engineering work. Work on one aspect of the camera does not bring other work on the camera to a grinding halt. This isn't a serial Christmas tree light circuit we're talking about.

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Guest guy_mancuso

Stop think this way for a second you now own leica company what do you do. i say this because almost every comment is a personal one and your needs. Think differently here for just a second.

 

First let me tell you a story . i owned a canon 1ds, 1dsMKII and i used Leica R lenses on them and most of the lenses with the adapter fit them with regards to the mirror except for a couple of them and almost all the Zeiss SLR lenses out there worked also. Well this went on for several years and at the time there were a lot of folks really bitching about canon wide glass, trust me i have a big mouth and i was relentless and many others as well complaining about the lack of good Canon wides. Now canon decides to make the 5D a lower cost FF camera and there are many folks now using Zeiss and leica glass with adapters bolted on there 1ds and 1dsMKII even there 1dMKII and 20 d people are bolting on 3rd party glass. So for no reason the 5D comes out with a oversized mirror in the camera. it's actually bigger than the 1dsMKII and really there is not a technical reason that anyone could come up with for a bigger mirror on this except that almost all the leica lenses and Zeiss won't fit on the darn 5d and now to get some lenses to work that worked just fine on the 1dsMKII body now we have to alter the lens so ithe rear shrouds will clear the mirror. Well some smart ass who will remain nameless:D decides heck with that we will now just shave the mirror on the 5D so he can fit all 10 of his Leica lenses on the 5D. Now the reason for the story is this was this something canon really needed to do for the 5D to work properly with Canon lenses, No not a chance it was not needed to have the mirror bigger, than why you ask. Well one can only assume was to stop folks like me from bolting on leica and Zeiss lenses and there now hundreds of us doing this and as much as CV lens owners at this point maybe more. What they did not count on was folks shaving mirrors and filing down rear shrouds and bolts to make them fit still. Now this begs the question why did Canon do that with the 5D mirror , I have yet to get a straight answer in 3 years. Hope you see my point here.

 

Now for Leica if they do this it is NOT and let me repeat that NOT for Zeiss and CV lens owners to be bolting on 3rd party lenses. That is NOT the intention of a manual code, the only reason that they may do this is for Leica lens owners that have lenses that cannot be coded. And the codes will be for every Leica lens made. This is for there customers that bought Leica glass in the 50 and 60's that can't take a code for some reason or another. Now do you honestly expect you the new owner of the company to give out a free pass to the competition to put there glass on my bodies. Now forget this crap about price and whatever else that too me is BS. This is strictly a business decision do you let others in on your bodies or not. Just like bolting a leica lens on a Canon body. Now leica is not stupid folks they know exactly were this code is going to go and probably 75 percent would go to folks they did not make the code for the Zeiss and CV owners and 25 percent to there actual customer that owns Leica glass that can't be coded but knowing full well that all there customers overall have in there bags is a mix of lenses maybe one CV and one Zeiss and a couple leica's. They know this and have to make a business decision on what to do. They want to help everyone out but realize there also losing some sales too. Now you as the business owner of leica have to make a call knowing all the facts that everyone out there will use this coding for other 3rd party lenses and maybe lose some sales initially than the board of directors walks in the room and says you know what screw this we want more revenue from leica for the stockholders that own this company . Okay management how you going to do that when your giving away the farm to save a few cows.

The point is folks it is a business that needs to make money not to just not survive but to pay employees, pay there vendors , pay there stockholders and actual show a profit at the end of the day.

 

 

I'm just throwing this post back out there because i see a lot of comments about what you want and not what leica is willing to do or not do and what makes the best sense as a business on what to do. Trust me I deal with leica a lot and there the nicest people around but they still need to run a business and make smart calls.

 

So i bring this all up what would you do if you owned leica, forget you are a owner and user. I have to think like this because i am a small business and have a wife and kids to feed . Do i give away my raw processing fees away to my clients.

 

some real food for thought. carry on

 

Now let me add i am for it but it needs to make sense doing it. Let me ask a question as a business owner which is something i would ask my clients are you willing to pay for this service? now let's forget you think Leica owes it to you to me that is meaningless, this is strictly a business call and have to think as such

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Hard to believe what i'm reading here.

So Leica customers could not use some of their lenses any more because Leica fears CV or CZ competition?

Or because new f/2.5 lenses could supposedly 'replace' non-codable gems like the pre-asph 'lux 35/1.4?

People who can afford to pay little fortunes for photo gear are not prepared to be treated that way IMHO.

 

Hi LCT,

 

Makes one wonder (he said facetiously) how Leica ever sold lenses in a competitive environment before 6-bit coding? If I recall correctly, Leica did actually continue to sell lenses long after other companies were able to sell competing LTM and M mount lenses. Apparently, according to some of the logic expressed here, people only buy Leica lenses for the 6-bit coding.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Stop think this way for a second you now own leica company what do you do. i say this because almost every comment is a personal one and your needs. Think differently here for just a second.

 

First let me tell you a story . i owned a canon 1ds, 1dsMKII and i used Leica R lenses on them and most of the lenses with the adapter fit them with regards to the mirror except for a couple of them and almost all the Zeiss SLR lenses out there worked also. Well this went on for several years and at the time there were a lot of folks really bitching about canon wide glass, trust me i have a big mouth and i was relentless and many others as well complaining about the lack of good Canon wides. Now canon decides to make the 5D a lower cost FF camera and there are many folks now using Zeiss and leica glass with adapters bolted on there 1ds and 1dsMKII even there 1dMKII and 20 d people are bolting on 3rd party glass. So for no reason the 5D comes out with a oversized mirror in the camera. it's actually bigger than the 1dsMKII and really there is not a technical reason that anyone could come up with for a bigger mirror on this except that almost all the leica lenses and Zeiss won't fit on the darn 5d and now to get some lenses to work that worked just fine on the 1dsMKII body now we have to alter the lens so ithe rear shrouds will clear the mirror. Well some smart ass who will remain nameless:D decides heck with that we will now just shave the mirror on the 5D so he can fit all 10 of his Leica lenses on the 5D. Now the reason for the story is this was this something canon really needed to do for the 5D to work properly with Canon lenses, No not a chance it was not needed to have the mirror bigger, than why you ask. Well one can only assume was to stop folks like me from bolting on leica and Zeiss lenses and there now hundreds of us doing this and as much as CV lens owners at this point maybe more. What they did not count on was folks shaving mirrors and filing down rear shrouds and bolts to make them fit still. Now this begs the question why did Canon do that with the 5D mirror , I have yet to get a straight answer in 3 years. Hope you see my point here.

 

Now for Leica if they do this it is NOT and let me repeat that NOT for Zeiss and CV lens owners to be bolting on 3rd party lenses. That is NOT the intention of a manual code, the only reason that they may do this is for Leica lens owners that have lenses that cannot be coded. And the codes will be for every Leica lens made. This is for there customers that bought Leica glass in the 50 and 60's that can't take a code for some reason or another. Now do you honestly expect you the new owner of the company to give out a free pass to the competition to put there glass on my bodies. Now forget this crap about price and whatever else that too me is BS. This is strictly a business decision do you let others in on your bodies or not. Just like bolting a leica lens on a Canon body. Now leica is not stupid folks they know exactly were this code is going to go and probably 75 percent would go to folks they did not make the code for the Zeiss and CV owners and 25 percent to there actual customer that owns Leica glass that can't be coded but knowing full well that all there customers overall have in there bags is a mix of lenses maybe one CV and one Zeiss and a couple leica's. They know this and have to make a business decision on what to do. They want to help everyone out but realize there also losing some sales too. Now you as the business owner of leica have to make a call knowing all the facts that everyone out there will use this coding for other 3rd party lenses and maybe lose some sales initially than the board of directors walks in the room and says you know what screw this we want more revenue from leica for the stockholders that own this company . Okay management how you going to do that when your giving away the farm to save a few cows.

The point is folks it is a business that needs to make money not to just not survive but to pay employees, pay there vendors , pay there stockholders and actual show a profit at the end of the day.

 

 

I'm just throwing this post back out there because i see a lot of comments about what you want and not what leica is willing to do or not do and what makes the best sense as a business on what to do. Trust me I deal with leica a lot and there the nicest people around but they still need to run a business and make smart calls.

 

So i bring this all up what would you do if you owned leica, forget you are a owner and user. I have to think like this because i am a small business and have a wife and kids to feed . Do i give away my raw processing fees away to my clients.

 

some real food for thought. carry on

 

Guy,

I understand and respect your opinion on this but have a look at my post above. Bottom line, if there weren't CV lenses available, I doubt I would have bought the M8 and started down this path. I am a perfect example of how Leica can expand their user base and over time have a long term customer.

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Ok, let's assume you are correct. The Board of Directors could say: "However, since the coding is mostly needed because of their engineering screw-up that requires filters, let's rub-salt in the wound and make it harder and more costly to resolve the problem really piss some customer's off that then file a law suit and wipe out not just the profits but the revenue from all of our lens sales just so we don't lose the one or two lens sales we would lose by helping our customers out."

 

Is this what you are suggesting is a good business decision?

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......

I'm amazed by the protectionist attitude for a company that has been competing with others since before many of us were born.

 

Hi Sean,

of course people probably buy Leica lenses because of the quality (optical and mechnical), however lens coding is an additional factor in favour of Leica (when someone has to decide to buy a Leica or a Zeiss lens).

 

Just to not get missunderstood:I hope for such a function/menue. I also own 1CV lens and 1 Zeiss lens. I just said that I would not do it if I was Leica.

 

protectionism is done by soooo many companies. Each camera has its own batteries, each car manufacturer binds guarantee to the use of original spare parts, printers are supposed to be used only with original ink...

Why would Leica want to invest money in order to allow people to use competitors lenses?

 

And the new line of less pricy Summarits is a clear sign Leica understands that the competition from Zeiss and CV-lenses and that Leica also understand they would give up market share if they only offered the top and premium priced lenses in the future.

 

Jusr my opinion.

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Guy,

I understand and respect your opinion on this but have a look at my post above. Bottom line, if there weren't CV lenses available, I doubt I would have bought the M8 and started down this path. I am a perfect example of how Leica can expand their user base and over time have a long term customer.

 

IMO they might win 2% additional M8-body sales and at the same time loose 20% lens sales.

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They want to help everyone out but realize there also losing some sales too.

 

If I were the owner of Leica I wouldn't do this to help anyone out I would do it because I would be confident that the net effect for my company would be an increase in sales, not a decrease. TEBnewyork's post is just one example of all the different ways this is good for Leica.

 

Canon is not a good comparison they are a huge company with a huge market. The RF market is small and Leica's future is dependent on the health and growth of that market segment. Leica's future is also dependent on the growth of the digital M platform beyond the sort of numbers that Leica has achieved in the recent past. For it's future Leica also has to expand it's user base beyond the collectors and wealthy hobbyists.

 

This would be a win win for Leica and it's customers especially it's new customers and if some of the defenders of the Red Dot Rich Kid's club get upset that they are having to rub shoulders with all those grubby poor photographers? They'll get over it. They can buy themselves a limited edition gold plated MP with baby seal skin covering, for sure none of those cheap skates will have one of those:).

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