Sign a petition for menu selectable lens profiles

[marknorton]

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Oh for crying out loud Mark. Did you consider Leica to be a parasite for the two years that the R-D1 was the only DRF? I don't recall you saying that when you were buying Leica lenses to use on your Epson. Its a ridiculous argument. Zeiss and Leica have been competitors since the early 20th century and competition is good for customers. CV is a new competitor and its made waves with excellent lenses that are also very reasonably priced. Leica is responding with lens competition and that's a smart response.

 

Leica is not a baby that needs to be protected. They'll take care of their of their own bottom line. What matters to me is what is best, broadly speaking, for photographers and choice is good. Options are good. Just because you don't need or want something doesn't make others who want it into whiners.

 

Tough to know whether there was a significant uplift in Leica lens business due to the Epson R-D1. 5000 units sold, 6 months M8 production, how many lenses, impossible to know. To be clear, I bought my M8 lenses in advance of the M8 launch and an expectation of growing demand and prices, not because I had an R-D1 which was strictly a stop-gap interest.

 

Zeiss and CV are certainly competitors to Leica and the new Summarits compete by adding the value of being coded compared to the equivalent Zeiss and CV lenses. Add a manual lens menu and you erode that competitive advantage. If I was a marketing manager charged with selling 10000 of each of the new lenses, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to prevent it happening.

 

Leica absolutely does need to be protected. The patient is in recovery but not yet in the clear. They will indeed take care of their bottom line and should do so, in my view, by protecting their revenue from needlessly leaking to the competition.

[hankg]

. If I was a marketing manager charged with selling 10000 of each of the new lenses, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to prevent it happening.

 

How about we only sell M8's bundled with 2 new lenses! If your to cheap to pay for the lenses you can't have the camera! Screw the wingers if they don't like it.

 

Let's hope you don't decide on a career in marketing.

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[sean_reid]

It's really very easy. My preference for a lens menu would be that you get to "default" each position of the lens select flange to a particular lens. If the lens you mount isn't coded, the camera looks at both the frame selected and the appropriate menu entry. But if the lens is coded, you get that.

 

So if you mount an uncoded lens that brings up the 35/24 frame, and you've set it to "35/2 Summicron Type 3," the camera assumes that lens.

 

Or, they could add "Lens Menu" and "Lens Menu + UV/IR" choices. And the lens menu popping up could be a feature you could turn off, just like the two-second "instant chimp" after exposure.

 

--Peter

 

I would suggest that people rest easy about a lens selection menu somehow interfering with the way they now use their M8s.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[mtwo]

Well folks, I just signed less than a minute ago. I am # 275. That is pathetic. Get on DPreview and post this so you reach a wider audience. There are probably other places too like Photo.net. This is not the only place Leica users go for info. John

[hankg]

Well folks, I just signed less than a minute ago. I am # 275. That is pathetic. Get on DPreview and post this so you reach a wider audience. There are probably other places too like Photo.net. This is not the only place Leica users go for info. John

 

I posted the petition but I'm not going to expend effort to promote it. I don't think it will matter much whether it has 275 signatures or 1,500. I think Leica has heard from all sides on this and they will do what ever they are going to do.

[sean_reid]

Tough to know whether there was a significant uplift in Leica lens business due to the Epson R-D1. 5000 units sold, 6 months M8 production, how many lenses, impossible to know. To be clear, I bought my M8 lenses in advance of the M8 launch and an expectation of growing demand and prices, not because I had an R-D1 which was strictly a stop-gap interest.

 

Zeiss and CV are certainly competitors to Leica and the new Summarits compete by adding the value of being coded compared to the equivalent Zeiss and CV lenses. Add a manual lens menu and you erode that competitive advantage. If I was a marketing manager charged with selling 10000 of each of the new lenses, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to prevent it happening.

 

Leica absolutely does need to be protected. The patient is in recovery but not yet in the clear. They will indeed take care of their bottom line and should do so, in my view, by protecting their revenue from needlessly leaking to the competition.

 

It may be hard for you to know but its not hard for Leica to know what affect the introduction of the R-D1 had on M lens sales. Let's just say Epson/Cosina did them a great favor from 2004 - 2006. Selling a few thousand lenses is not a small matter to a company like Leica. Every company that helped to keep the RF market alive was an asset to any company who now sells RF equipment. Many R-D1 photographers switched to the M8 but had not used RF camera prior to the Epson. The whole set of effects these companies have upon each other and the market are much more involved than you suggest.

 

So did you consider Leica a "parasite" during that time period? When you bought those lenses for your R-D1, it was not publicly known if Leica ever would actually produce a DRF. They said they would but the public had no way of knowing what would happen. In fact, you complained several times that it had not been introduced yet. (But we won't call that whining.)

 

Leica is *Leica*. They have always competed based on the quality of their products and not based on closing their systems. Are you suggesting that Leica lenses can't compete based on their quality and value (esp. the newer Summarits)? You think they need the special protections of a quasi-closed system? They never did before.

 

Leica has had lens competition since the early 20th century. You think that suddenly now they can't handle that? Their lenses, you think, can no longer compete on their own merits?

 

I say let the M8 work well with as wide a range of lenses as possible (because that's best for photographers) and let the RF lens makers compete on quality and value as they always have. Leica does not need to be coddled and they'll compete just as all companies must.

[sean_reid]

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I posted the petition but I'm not going to expend effort to promote it. I don't think it will matter much whether it has 275 signatures or 1,500. I think Leica has heard from all sides on this and they will do what ever they are going to do.

 

And I think you, Hank, may be a happy guy with respect to this.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[gdi]

Oh for crying out loud Mark. Did you consider Leica to be a parasite for the two years that the R-D1 was the only DRF? I don't recall you saying that when you were buying Leica lenses to use on your Epson. Its a ridiculous argument. Zeiss and Leica have been competitors since the early 20th century and competition is good for customers. CV is a new competitor and its made waves with excellent lenses that are also very reasonably priced. Leica is responding with lens competition and that's a smart response.

 

Leica is not a baby that needs to be protected. They'll take care of their of their own bottom line. What matters to me is what is best, broadly speaking, for photographers and choice is good. Options are good. Just because you don't need or want something doesn't make others who want it into whiners.

 

At least there are some voices of reason in the wilderness here - Sean if you keep up this logical approach, I will renew my subscription to ReidReviews - hell, I may even forgive you for teaching hundreds of forum posters to describe the "drawing" of their lenses!

 

The rationalization here is incredible - these are the lamest arguments yet! I'm just waiting for the petition to encourage Leica to implement a tithing clause, they need the money more than we do - 10% of your adjusted gross income should go straight to Leica if you are an amateur, if you are earning your living shooting with an M8 it'll have to be 20% to even out the contribution.

 

But you all know I kid... I kid! The Leica fan club are tyros compared to the masters of product worship...

The Bachelor Guy » Product Worship Tattoos: Apple Vs. Harley-Davidson

 

 

Come on show off those Leitz Tats!

[sean_reid]

Hi Gary,

 

You wrote:

 

"At least there are some voices of reason in the wilderness here - Sean if you keep up this logical approach, I will renew my subscription to ReidReviews - hell, I may even forgive you for teaching hundreds of forum posters to describe the "drawing" of their lenses!:D"

 

Thanks, and drawing an image on a sensor or piece of film is exactly what lenses do. <G!> I'm glad to see people thinking in terms that go beyond MTF etc.

 

"The rationalization here is incredible - these are the lamest arguments yet! I'm just waiting for the petition to encourage Leica to implement a tithing clause, they need the money more than we do - 10% of your adjusted gross income should go straight to Leica if you are an amateur, if you are earning your living shooting with an M8 it'll have to be 20% to even out the contribution."

 

<G> And, of course Leica knows that it has to compete to survive and grow.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

Is that a vague hint you know something you can't divulge (Hopefully, not that Leica's management has another petition to us customers that says "[expletive deleted]-you!" )

 

You can rest easy that the latter, to the best of my knowledge, is not in the works.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[gdi]

Hi Gary,

 

You wrote:

 

"At least there are some voices of reason in the wilderness here - Sean if you keep up this logical approach, I will renew my subscription to ReidReviews - hell, I may even forgive you for teaching hundreds of forum posters to describe the "drawing" of their lenses!:D"

 

Thanks, and drawing an image on a sensor or piece of film is exactly what lenses do. <G!> I'm glad to see people thinking in terms that go beyond MTF etc.

 

"The rationalization here is incredible - these are the lamest arguments yet! I'm just waiting for the petition to encourage Leica to implement a tithing clause, they need the money more than we do - 10% of your adjusted gross income should go straight to Leica if you are an amateur, if you are earning your living shooting with an M8 it'll have to be 20% to even out the contribution."

 

<G> And, of course Leica knows that it has to compete to survive and grow.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

"Drawing" comments aside, it was nice to see your advocacy of some of the lower contrast lenses - helped me to understand that my sometimes enjoying less "punch" in my B&W shots was not a sign of a psychological defect on my part. You may have saved me a lot of money on therapy.

[sean_reid]

"Drawing" comments aside, it was nice to see your advocacy of some of the lower contrast lenses - helped me to understand that my sometimes enjoying less "punch" in my B&W shots was not a sign of a psychological defect on my part. You may have saved me a lot of money on therapy.

 

Glad to hear it.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

"...It certainly was; for they had been two kindred spirits. At the ominous word ``liberality'', Scrooge frowned, and shook his head, and handed the credentials back.

 

``At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,'' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, ``it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.''

 

``Are there no prisons?'' asked Scrooge.

 

``Plenty of prisons,'' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

 

``And the Union workhouses?'' demanded Scrooge. ``Are they still in operation?''

 

``They are. Still,'' returned the gentleman, `` I wish I could say they were not.''

 

``The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?'' said Scrooge.

 

``Both very busy, sir.''

 

``Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,'' said Scrooge. ``I'm very glad to hear it.''

 

``Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,'' returned the gentleman, ``a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?''

 

``Nothing!'' Scrooge replied.

 

``You wish to be anonymous?''

 

``I wish to be left alone,'' said Scrooge. ``Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned: they cost enough: and those who are badly off must go there.''

 

``Many can't go there; and many would rather die.''

 

``If they would rather die,'' said Scrooge, ``they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population...''

 

From "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens.

[cme4brain]

You're not a business consultant to Leica, Mark and you have no idea how a lens menu will affect M8 sales and lens sales. My own guess is that the M8 lens menu will help to sell the camera and will attract new owners who, over time, will also buy Leica lenses. But, again, I care about the choices photographers have. Leica is able to run its own business and take care of its own bottom line.

 

I have signed the petition, and agree with Sean about the arrogance of some responses in this thread. I am one of those "looked down upon" (according to Norton) M8 customers who does not yet own Leica glass, and somehow does not deserve to live because I CHOOSE not to spend money at the moment on Leica lenses- that I doubt in real world photography outside a studio anyone could tell the difference anyway more than 50% of the time. I own all CV lenses save the 12mm, and am glad to have them. If I could not purchase them, I would not justify a $5000 hobby to the wife nor myself. And before you think me a poor starving idiot Mr. Norton, I am Chief of Neurology at my Hospital and make quite a nice salary! My wife is a physician as well so money is not my problem. Despite my tax bracket I will not, however, spend $30,000 in Leica glass to duplicate my CV collection as my photographic needs will never tell the difference. But I will buy Leica glass sometime, and my CV lenses allow me to enter the M8 family now! Were it not for CV glass I would not have given Leica the profit from the camera body nor the future profit from my lens(es) purchase.

 

It was this arrogance ("If Leica makes it, they will come") that put the company in receivership several times; nearly bankrupted them. Other camera companies have been decades in advancement over Leica for this reason. Look at the R9- to get the digital form you need to spend $10K for a non-autofocus camera? The Canons kick its a$$ to the point that Leica had to abandon it. Were it not for the M line, Leica Inc. would be a collectors item on eBay. All it requires for an arrogant company like Leica is arrongant customers like Mr. Norton to buy their religion without question. They can adapt in the marketplace or die. They may not be enough buyers like Mr. Norton to keep the company afloat.

 

This type of arrogance I thought was exclusive to my profession. Now I see it for a CAMERA. Some of you people are making your therapists rich, and making me laugh.

[butchhul]

I love my M8, most of the time I like Leica. I use Leica, Voigtlander and Zeiss glass. A lens menu would give me options that would add to the possibilities, Bring It On, and let the chips fall.

 

Leica will survive.

 

Butch

[barjohn]

Leica is no different than you or I. When we purchase a camera from Leica we enter into a contract just as if you or I entered into a contract. A contract is a promise to deliver a product or service in exchange for your promise to pay with sound currency. In this case, Leica is the master of their contract in that they specify what they will provide in exchange for your specified currency. They specify their product in their specifications sheet, which they control, and the specifications are generally further refined in their user manual and warranty statement. It is no different than if you wish to sell me a used lens and you describe its characteristics and specifications and I pay you money in exchange. I have every right to expect to receive what you have promised as do you in relation to the currency I promised to pay.

 

I strongly suggest that you go to the Leica web site and carefully read their specification sheet. Leica makes both subjective and objective statements about its product that are currently untrue. Courts construe subjective statements as measured either to the "reasonable person" standard or the "journeyman standard" depending on the promise and the intended recipient. For example, if you paid to have cabinets made and your satisfaction were guaranteed. The standard would be what a journeyman would consider an acceptable standard and not the reasonable person on the street that is not knowledgeable about cabinet making. This is a higher standard. So when Leica claims a low noise sensor, for example, the standard would be in comparison to other professional cameras and not to a P&S. However, when they claim 16 bit color DNG files, the files MUST contain 16 bits for color and it is not sufficient to say that in post processing one can create a 16 bit file from the DNG in a third party application. Here we are talking about the output from the camera only as there is no stated requirement to post process. The behavior of controls and their functions are described in the user manual and should function as described.

 

You may wonder why I am raising these issues. The reason is simple. Leica has introduced or discovered numerous shortcomings in the M8. These range from the IR sensitivity issue to banding, blobing, SDS, zebra stripping, poor JPEG quality, poor AWB, failing shutter switches, battery problems, etc. Yet, customers have hung in with them, often at great personal expense (Like many I purchased B&W filters because the wait was so long for the Leica filters). In fact, this is a perfect example of how Leica chose their own self interest over their customers. Instead of designing the software correction to meet the B&W filters they knew everyone was buying because they were available, they chose to create yet another design requiring different software correction to make the B&W filters less effective than their own brand. In other words, they not only make you pay for their design error, they make you pay twice. However, if you never purchased B&W filters they still make you pay more by paying the higher Leica price for their Japanese filter over the German B&W filter, already high priced.

 

My point is that Leica owes its loyal customer more than a sharp stick in the eye. The few requests I have seen are neither onerous nor detrimental to Leica. They need the customer's good will because it would only take a handful of disgruntled customers to start a class action suit for their numerous documented failures to perform their promises. Such a suit would probably result in the demise of the company. Were I Leica's legal counsel I would be advising them to take pro-active measures to reduce the probability of such a suit and to mitigate its chances of being certified for class action. I realize that European law is more favorable to companies than U.S. law but they are doing business here and need to consider how litigious we can be. Don't get me wrong, I am not proposing Leica be sued, class action or otherwise, I am just saying don't be too arrogant their are plenty of attorneys that make a living taking advantage of companies that make that mistake when they are wide open and vulnerable by their own actions.

[sean_reid]

An interesting post John and, as you may know, I am strongly against anyone suing Leica. I don't think there's reason at all to do that. The M8 is a new camera and there have been a lot of bugs to work out in the first year. I think they have, overall, been responsive to requests and certainly have made many improvements via the firmware, free filters, etc. I do think that the lens menu (and I continue to argue that it should come at no extra charge) would be not only be useful but also a wise "goodwill" gesture towards the many M8 owners who use at least some uncoded lenses.

 

Speaking of which...With 35 mm and longer lenses, one's 486 filters will work very well and need not be replaced with Leica filters. 28 should be fine as well. At 24 and below (working hypothesis for the 24 itself since I am still waiting for a 55 mm test filter) Leica filters are advantageous because they're a bit weaker and the firmware is tuned to them.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[barjohn]

Sean,

 

Thanks for the information (I am a subscriber but must have missed the nuance you are describing). I have the Leica filters on my 28/2.8 Asph but my 50 cron & Minolta 40/f2 both have B&W filters and I was looking to get a 55mm for my 90 cron. I have a 46 Leica filter that I am saving in case I break down and buy a Leica 35mm lens to replace the Minolta, my first lens and the one I used to justify to my wife my purchase of the M8 after selling my RD-1 See honey, I already have a lens and it only costs a little more to have a better body that has a long warranty and will be exceptional:)

[lct]

Hard to believe what i'm reading here.

So Leica customers could not use some of their lenses any more because Leica fears CV or CZ competition?

Or because new f/2.5 lenses could supposedly 'replace' non-codable gems like the pre-asph 'lux 35/1.4?

People who can afford to pay little fortunes for photo gear are not prepared to be treated that way IMHO.

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[andybarton]

IMHO, Leica should be catering for their own, current lenses first, before using up precious codes for older, more esoteric lenses.

 

They will also have to allow space for future lenses, as yet un-designed.