Is it better to master one focal length with a rangefinder before using other lenses?

[KanzaKruzer]

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Kanza,

 

Enjoy your new system. Do you have an eta for the M?

 

When I want to shoot my son (4 years old with no off button), I focus while tracking him (as a habit I always start off from infinity) and fire the shutter while the RF is close to perfect (thus accounting for him moving into the zone). It's not a difficult thing, but takes practice to learn. Once you start using the system, you'll surprise yourself with your own ingenuity to solve such problems and will developer a system that works for you.

 

I can't begin to imagine the pent-up anticipation you must be feeling by now!

 

Have fun with the gear, man.

I gave up trying to predict delivery back in March. I was first on the list with my local dealer, but ordered a silver body. The dealer received their first M last month and it was black, so it went to the first to order black. I’ll probably have questions concerning best methods after receiving the M and plan to practice, practice, and practice more.

Keeping the D800E during this time was good as well as planning to overlap for the first year. I’m still undecided, but may sell the remaining DSLR equipment if the M and GR meet 80% of my needs. It’s interesting that I have never quite bonded with the D800E as much as I did with the D700. They are very similar, but after 18 months I have only taken a fraction of the number of shots I did with the D700. Then again I sold most of my DSLR lenses.

[Rick]

Dear Kanza,

 

First of all, you need to slow down. Don't be concerned at all that you haven't got your camera yet after a year. This is just part of the fun of Leica. I would suggest the following approach in order to become proficient with your new M when it arrives:

 

I know you have listed your lenses and this shows an admirable effort at assembling your kit, but I'm afraid you really won't know which lenses you are going to want until you ask a lot of questions on the forum about what others think you need. Be sure to include all of your future travel destinations as this seems to be a critical piece of information in deciding what lenses to suggest you buy and use.

 

Next, read every thing you can about lenses. Especially, read everything from Erwin Puts. This Puts fellow seems to know a lot and you will find that quoting him on this forum will make you seem like you know what you are talking about. Now, this won't help you take better pictures, but this is just part of the fun of Leica.

 

If and when you finally get the camera, start with no lens at all. I suggest, using the black camera cap instead. Practice visualizing the picture and then bring the camera to your eye. Don't worry about the fact that there is no lens on the camera. This exercise is more about seeing the picture. I know this confuses a lot of guys coming from big DSLRs that are used to just waving the camera around and zooming in and out until they have zoomed in or out and found the picture. Here at Leica, we don't stumble on pictures by zooming in and out, we pre-visualize them. You should practice this a lot, or at least just say you do.

 

Next, add the battery to the camera and learn the menus. Spend a lot of time reading threads about the M's menu choices and learn how to set up your camera before you take any pictures. One word. DNG (ok, it is actually an acronym). Anyway, a lot of the guys really think this is important. I'm the wrong guy to ask. I don't read the "Digital" sub-forum portion of this website. But, I can tell you that from the sound of it, you can devote your lifetime just trying to understand Light Room and becoming proficient at PP. I thought I mastered that when I was five, but apparently there is more to it.

 

And, don't underestimate how important it is to understand which memory card to use. Set aside at least a month to read all of the threads and posts on start-up times and memory cards. Also, set aside an enormous amount of your budget for buying the latest memory card mentioned here as being good. And, don't ever buy a memory card in China. As counter intuitive as this sounds, and I understand they are all made there, but you should buy them from a reputable dealer or at least say you do.

 

Moving along, be sure not to put any lenses on your camera yet, this will only confuse you. But, you can practice taking a few steps forwards or backwards. For some reason, this seems to be very important in understanding that a 50mm lens is really very much like a 75 mm lens, or for that matter a 35mm lens... give or take a few steps.

 

As you can see there is a lot of work to be done before even thinking about mounting a lens... on your new camera I mean. My advise it to slow down and don't even think about whether you should start out by using just one lens or all of them. Keep it simple and just start with the black camera cap for a while. This will give you plenty to post about and read here for quite a while until you figure out the best path forward.

 

You asked, so I hope you understand this is simply my humble personal advise to answer the question you asked.

 

Rick

[KanzaKruzer]

Dear Kanza,

 

First of all, you need to slow down. Don't be concerned at all that you haven't got your camera yet after a year. This is just part of the fun of Leica. I would suggest the following approach in order to become proficient with your new M when it arrives:

 

I know you have listed your lenses and this shows an admirable effort at assembling your kit, but I'm afraid you really won't know which lenses you are going to want until you ask a lot of questions on the forum about what others think you need. Be sure to include all of your future travel destinations as this seems to be a critical piece of information in deciding what lenses to suggest you buy and use.

 

Next, read every thing you can about lenses. Especially, read everything from Erwin Puts. This Puts fellow seems to know a lot and you will find that quoting him on this forum will make you seem like you know what you are talking about. Now, this won't help you take better pictures, but this is just part of the fun of Leica.

 

If and when you finally get the camera, start with no lens at all. I suggest, using the black camera cap instead. Practice visualizing the picture and then bring the camera to your eye. Don't worry about the fact that there is no lens on the camera. This exercise is more about seeing the picture. I know this confuses a lot of guys coming from big DSLRs that are used to just waving the camera around and zooming in and out until they have zoomed in or out and found the picture. Here at Leica, we don't stumble on pictures by zooming in and out, we pre-visualize them. You should practice this a lot, or at least just say you do.

 

Next, add the battery to the camera and learn the menus. Spend a lot of time reading threads about the M's menu choices and learn how to set up your camera before you take any pictures. One word. DNG (ok, it is actually an acronym). Anyway, a lot of the guys really think this is important. I'm the wrong guy to ask. I don't read the "Digital" sub-forum portion of this website. But, I can tell you that from the sound of it, you can devote your lifetime just trying to understand Light Room and becoming proficient at PP. I thought I mastered that when I was five, but apparently there is more to it.

 

And, don't underestimate how important it is to understand which memory card to use. Set aside at least a month to read all of the threads and posts on start-up times and memory cards. Also, set aside an enormous amount of your budget for buying the latest memory card mentioned here as being good. And, don't ever buy a memory card in China. As counter intuitive as this sounds, and I understand they are all made there, but you should buy them from a reputable dealer or at least say you do.

 

Moving along, be sure not to put any lenses on your camera yet, this will only confuse you. But, you can practice taking a few steps forwards or backwards. For some reason, this seems to be very important in understanding that a 50mm lens is really very much like a 75 mm lens, or for that matter a 35mm lens... give or take a few steps.

 

As you can see there is a lot of work to be done before even thinking about mounting a lens... on your new camera I mean. My advise it to slow down and don't even think about whether you should start out by using just one lens or all of them. Keep it simple and just start with the black camera cap for a while. This will give you plenty to post about and read here for quite a while until you figure out the best path forward.

 

You asked, so I hope you understand this is simply my humble personal advise to answer the question you asked.

 

Rick

Rick,

I'm surprised you did not suggest a full assortment of camera bags as you are often referenced as an expert. Just sharing the Leica love.

 

I just arranged with my friend to borrow his M tomorrow. I'm letting him borrow my D800E. Should be fun!

[Rick]

Rick,

I'm surprised you did not suggest a full assortment of camera bags as you are often referenced as an expert. Just sharing the Leica love.

 

I just arranged with my friend to borrow his M tomorrow. I'm letting him borrow my D800E. Should be fun!

 

David,

 

Don't get me started on bags! I love bag threads!!!

 

The hardest part you are going to have with your friend's M is going to be giving it back. As you may already know, I love this little camera. Have fun.

[pfhrased]

One more vote for #3. Use them all and often. I can understand a photography teacher assigning use of one lens for an assignment. But when you are deciding for yourself, better to select based on the situation.

 

The problem with using one lens for six months, at least in my experience, is that it becomes harder to see other focal lengths in composition terms (I still can't not see in 35mm).

 

Use all of them, often - nothing will help better than a lot of practice. You'll work out which lenses work for which shots, and it will be a joy doing so!

[exile]

Options 1 and 3.

Seriously.

 

Option 3 - you will regularly be going out to take photos as your primary objective. Take whichever lenses seem most suitable for the planned shoot. If you aren't sure which, take them all.

Option 1 - the rest of the time you should take your new camera and the smallest normal lens with you everywhere just to learn the camera and be accomplished in one standard lens. This should be the M and your 50mm summicron. (Any 35, 40 or 50'cron would work, but you just happen to own the most expensive version so get insurance to save your sanity.

Good luck Sir.

 

1. Start with 50mm until proficient before moving on to other focal lengths.
   
2. Alternate between the 35mm and 50mm before moving on to other focal lengths.
   
3. Use all my lenses from the start selecting the best focal length for the situation.
   

[thompsonkirk]

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Good point: 'I find the extra weight and size of the 'Luxes is a deciding factor when setting out in the morning. Do I really need f/1.4?' -- Mike

 

I use M9s because I don't appreciate M240 color. I normally use Summicrons, and use Summiluxes only when I anticipate using the largest apertures.

 

But if 240 firmware were to improve the color, then I doubt I'd keep the M9s and Luxes. The Luxes are heavy and would be for the most part redundant. I'd use Crons and just boost the ISO.

 

Kirk

[MirekE]

I would appreciate feedback on which following option would be the best path forward:

 

1. Start with 50mm until proficient before moving on to other focal lengths.
   
2. Alternate between the 35mm and 50mm before moving on to other focal lengths.
   
3. Use all my lenses from the start selecting the best focal length for the situation.
   

 

Start using all of your lenses a soon as possible to determine if any needs to be send back to Leica for readjusting. Use 35 and 50mm to learn RF focusing. The other lenses are less easy to use and may get frustrating as starter lenses.

[KanzaKruzer]

I spent an hour taking about 200 photos with a friend’s M. Focus was spot on although all the subjects (people, plants, etc.) were static. I was able to use all my lenses. I used the CRF with the 35 and 50 and the EVF with the 21 and 90. Framing was easier with the EVF, but I suspect that will shift in favor of the CRF after some time. Spot of focus was not an issue even though I used maximum aperture with all the lenses. I did not change any of the settings, and there seemed to be a green cast to some photos. White balance must have been off. Focal length did not come through on the Nokton, but I suspect that can be manually entered when I get my M. Aperture readout in Lightroom did not accurately reflect the settings I had on the camera. I used aperture priority for all photos, but some photos were overexposed when I took 2 or 3 photos in short sequence. 50 mm was my favorite focal length, and the 90 mm surprisingly came in second. I’ll have to sit tight until my M arrives, but I feel more confident that I don’t need to restrict myself to one lens. I still anticipate the 50mm and 35 mm will be used the most. The traditional CRF mechanism is so much faster than what I experienced when focusing the Zeiss lenses on my DSLR.

[Jeff S]

Aperture readout in Lightroom did not accurately reflect the settings I had on the camera.

 

That's why I recommended reading the FAQ (as here), as well as taking pics.

 

Jeff

[KanzaKruzer]

That's why I recommended reading the FAQ (as here), as well as taking pics.

 

Jeff

I was not surprised by the miss reading as I thought I remembered reading about that some time last year. Thanks for the link.

[zlatkob]

Here are the two 21mm "no finder shots" night shoots. They are made using the technique of "Shoot at ISO 640 and push Exposure in post (LR4/5)." This technique is discussed in this thread, which, contrary to the conventional wisdom, shows that the M9 can be a great low-ISO camera. In the second picture the Exposure on the main subjects at the right is pushed 4.15 stops in LR5, which is equivalent to ISO 11,776.

You are promoting this technique in post after post, but the photos don't support your claim that the M9 is a "great" high-ISO camera. It is more like an average high ISO camera. The Canon 1DX and Nikon D4 are great high ISO cameras.

[CaptZoom]

Sounds like you're first outing with an M was a success! I bet that felt good, and helped settle some doubts.

 

I'll add some thoughts, and apologize in advance for butchering your post.

 

I did not change any of the settings, and there seemed to be a green cast to some photos. White balance must have been off.

WB seems to be something that's plagued the M series; it's something that can be fixed via firmware, and Leica says they've got a fix in the pipeline. Hopefully it'll be taken care of before you get your M. And even if it doesn't, WB fixes (though some times time consuming) are relatively easy in PP and LR can do localized WB editing now.

 

Focal length did not come through on the Nokton, but I suspect that can be manually entered when I get my M.

You are correct in that you can enter the FL via menu settings, by encoding the lens as its closest Leica match. You can also code the lens yourself and leave the camera in auto lens detect. The catch is that the lens will be coded as a Leica lens in the EXIF data. Some people don't care about this, others do (it's a personal preference thing). I tend to add keywords (chiefly lens used) to files on import, so I have a record, other than my memory, of which lens was used.

 

Aperture readout in Lightroom did not accurately reflect the settings I had on the camera.

Yup. It's off by quite a bit some times- makes me wonder how Aperture Priority works at all!?!

 

The traditional CRF mechanism is so much faster than what I experienced when focusing the Zeiss lenses on my DSLR.

 

Next time your friend lets you use his M, take a few minutes to verify your lenses are calibrated properly especially the Voigtlander (CV is bit more relaxed on quality control than Leica or Ziess). It seems like your lenses are fine, but wouldn't hurt to rule things out now while you have time to send the lenses in for adjustment should they need it and while they're still warranted.

[zlatkob]

Yup. It's off by quite a bit some times- makes me wonder how Aperture Priority works at all!?!

 

It works because the camera measures light through the actual taking aperture. Whatever you stop down to is what the camera "sees" from its light meter -- and it adjusts the shutter speed accordingly.

[Guest malland]

You are promoting this technique in post after post, but the photos don't support your claim that the M9 is a "great" high-ISO camera. It is more like an average high ISO camera. The Canon 1DX and Nikon D4 are great high ISO cameras.

Tell you what, zlatkob, the next time you get a dyspepsia attack from one of my posts why not just take an Alka-Seltzer and send me a PM, as there is no need to divert this thread — when I made my post above I thought, from the context, that the OP would be interested in the high-ISO possibilities of the M9, which turned out to be wrong.

 

Of course the Canon 1DX and Nikon D4 have ostensively "better" high-ISO performance than the M9 — but that is not taking into account the color rendition of the M9 compared to these Canon and Nikon cameras.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Tristes Tropiques [WIP]

[IWC Doppel]

You will settle into a pattern, like most of us habitual creatures. Mine for what it's worth is choose the lens. Usually I choose for the day, I'm not a pro and want to have my camera with me all day adding the extra weight of another lens if i don't need to, that's my choice.

 

Put the lens on, choose auto lens or manually set (most but not all if my lenses are coded)

Choose the ISO.

 

Then your good to go, I prefer to set speed and meter using the camera, I have a check for 1s review with clipped images blue n red, makes a quick discreet check easy for me. Some choose the histogram, I prefer to look at the histogram when reviewing, I want to see the image and histogram together, just personal preference. I'm sure the functionality is better on the M in any case.

 

My real point here is as the camera is more manual than most a habitual pattern for set up is a good thing IMO as if you are like me and you don't, you could end up wondering why the sun seems two stops brighter than normal only to realise you still had 800 ISO on from the night before, or 'correct' a coded lens with the wrong code as you adjusted manually yesterday for a non coded lens !

 

Sounds like your having fun already, do enjoy yourself.

[CaptZoom]

It works because the camera measures light through the actual taking aperture. Whatever you stop down to is what the camera "sees" from its light meter -- and it adjusts the shutter speed accordingly.

 

I know that's what the camera is supposed/attempting to do, and to do so the processor has to estimate the aperture value. Presumably the aperture value recorded in the EXIF data is the same value used by the processor is to set the shutter time (for simplicity's sake let's say the operator has set a particular ISO). If this is the case, then it stands to reason the resulting exposure is offset directly by the inaccurately estimated aperture value.

 

I don't use Aperture Priority mode enough to submit much by way of personal experience. At those times I use Aperture Priority I am not overly concerned with proper exposure and expect to spend some extra time in post processing. That being said, drastic under/over exposures do not stick out in my recollection and certainly nothing as drastic as some of the erroneous aperture values recorded in the EXIF.

[algrove]

Part of my concern is taking the APO out in unfriendly conditions and having it scratched from blowing sand, water damage, dents, drops, etc. A $1,000 lens is a lot less than a $7,000 lens and is more easily replaced. Given availability of the APO, I question I could easily obtain another irrespective of insurance etc.. Leica M bodies will eventually be easy to replace.

 

My initial post was searching for the fastest way to hit the ground running when I eventually receive my M given my lack of rangefinder experience and trying to identify any unique issues related to rangefinders. I have a pretty good handle on SLR/DSLR focal lengths and large format focal lengths as well as how a lens draws, etc..

 

Put a UVa on the APO 50, insure it, get off this forum and go out and shoot.

[zlatkob]

I know that's what the camera is supposed/attempting to do, and to do so the processor has to estimate the aperture value. Presumably the aperture value recorded in the EXIF data is the same value used by the processor is to set the shutter time (for simplicity's sake let's say the operator has set a particular ISO). If this is the case, then it stands to reason the resulting exposure is offset directly by the inaccurately estimated aperture value.

 

Sorry, but I think you've got this wrong. The processor does not have to "estimate the aperture value" — at least not for purposes of determining the exposure. The light meter measures the actual amount of light coming through the lens. The amount of light coming through the lens is mechanically limited by the actual aperture you've set, not the estimated aperture. The aperture value recorded in the EXIF does not affect the exposure. Any error in the estimated aperture has no effect on the resulting exposure. A lot of exposures would be off by a stop or two if your theory were correct, but they are not.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[CaptZoom]

Sorry, but I think you've got this wrong. The processor does not have to "estimate the aperture value" — at least not for purposes of determining the exposure. The light meter measures the actual amount of light coming through the lens. The amount of light coming through the lens is mechanically limited by the actual aperture you've set, not the estimated aperture. The aperture value recorded in the EXIF does not affect the exposure. Any error in the estimated aperture has no effect on the resulting exposure. A lot of exposures would be off by a stop or two if your theory were correct, but they are not.

 

Thanks.