Michael Hiles Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63241 Posted September 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 10 hours ago, RayD28 said: Thanks. I tried to compensate for the shadows at exposure. I used an MP and opened up a full stop or so from the meter's reading. I pulled the shadows slightly in LR. Anymore pulling made it too grainy for my taste for this shot. Thanks. I shot at 800 ASA and developed at 800 ASA, so I do not think I underexposed in development. Please let me know if this is incorrect. Used the Massive Development Chart's recommendation for HP5 shot at 800 ASA using DD-X. I'm a novice with developing so I have not learned how to tweak chemistry and development times to underexpose when developing. I definitely tried to expose for the shadows but not enough for the horses' eyes. I knew it would blow out the highlights but I underestimated how much to open up. At the risk of being argumentative, development times have very little effect on the shadows. Films have a natural speed that is determined by the manufacturer. The goal of exposing is to achieve shadow area that has a density of about 0.1 when the exposure is four stops underexposed from what your meter tells you. This is what the Zone system people would call Zone I – the darkest tone that can be discerned from maximum black. The Maximum Development Chart will give you a rough place to start in determining development times to produce good highlights with some detail, but it will not provide a way of underexposing the negative and offsetting the lack of light by adjusting development. When the chart provides a time for HP5 at 800 ASA, that might be the best time for a 1 stop underexposure – it does not suggest that this will be a negative that is the equivalent of 400 ASA at the advertised time, or 200ASA at the associated time. But there is no free lunch. Development time changes will not provide a way of achieving the best negative while underexposing (or overexposing). There is no “push”, only underexpose. That does not mean the negative will be unusable, but it will be sub-optimal. Ideally, testing for the practical ASA is the way to go (which for HP5 may not be 400 ASA - I don't know - but I doubt that is 800 ASA). Once you know the ASA that produces rich shadows, you can test/adjust your development time to give you solid highlights that are usually not blown out. The MAssive Development Chart may be a place to start to test for development time. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 Hi Michael Hiles, Take a look here I like film...(open thread) . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Rennrocky Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63242 Posted September 9, 2019 Minox MC FP4 Selfcut Berlin City West Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 14 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816149'>More sharing options...
Popular Post adan Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63243 Posted September 9, 2019 On the subject of "pushing": https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/01/same-old-disease.html Of note, some people commenting there think HP5 needs to be pushed a bit to get the best midtone contrast. Otherwise it is too muddy (ITHO). It is also of note that Harman/Ilford specifically state in their documentation that: "It should be noted that the exposure index (EI) range recommended for HP5 Plus is based on a practical evaluation of film speed and is not based on foot speed, as is the ISO standard." A lot of real-world variables in photography. Including that an MP (or any other film Leica except the quartz-timed M7) with a clockwork shutter that has not been adjusted with the past 3 years or so may well be shooting at 1/400th and 1/700th when set to 1/500th and 1/1000th. ________________________________ Anyway, since Michael brought up the Zone system, and I brought up foot speed, and variables - here's another little party trick - 13 stops of tonal range. Picture was shot to test TMax 400 using what I call "HC-55" - HC-110 dilution B diluted again 1:1 (total dilution 1:63), and agitated once every three minutes (10 minutes total time at 24°C). As a reminder, I'm trying to get the fullest tonal range out of TM400 with my new contrasty Mamiya lenses. Ideally I want a neg that is some density everywhere - nothing clipped to "empty film" - yet with sunlit "whites" that hold detail as well. In the interests of science, I actually did meter and make notes of the brightest and darkest parts of this subject, as noted on the image. My Sekonic meter in reflected mode said that if I used ISO 400 film and a shutter speed of 1/125, then - The brightest sunlit wall would require an aperture of f/64 to render as medium gray. - The darkest shadow (polka-dot counter curtain shaded by coffee stand) would require an aperture of f/0.7 to render as medium gray (Sorry, Noctilux users - it ain't fast enough!). - A mathematical average exposure based on those readings comes out as 1/125 at f/5.6 - An incident reading from the subject location (i.e. the "room light" - Sekonic again) came out as 1/125 and f/8 - a reflected overall reading of the scene came out as 1/125 and f/13 - shows how much hot highlights can "bias" a reflected reading. They can be untrustworthy. - the actual exposure was made Zone-System-style - I took that f/0.7 shadow reading, and then underexposed 3 stops to put it in Zone II (distinguishable detail and texture, not just distinguishable from black). 1/125 at f/2.0 (but since my lens was not that fast, I used the equivalent 1/30 at f/4.0). The picture does just barely hold detail distinguishable from white or black across the 13-stop range. (But you'd have to see the highlights at full res - and squint a little - to see the "bathroom tile" texture of that wall, or the wood grain in the white Treehouse logo). Coincidentally, just after doing this, I discovered a reference to Kodak's claims for "dynamic range" of B&W film - 13 stops. However, I found the "HC-55" technique to be a bit unpredictable, and not very sharp (HC-110 has a lot of grain-solvent action). Two rolls developed one after the other were quite different in shadow detail. I'm finding the Rodinal 1:50 to be more consistent roll to roll, and produce more sharpness and mid-tone contrast while still holding the highlights and shadows. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 12 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816155'>More sharing options...
Popular Post adan Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63244 Posted September 9, 2019 This is a sunlit image with the same technique as my "Telephone sculpture" indoor picture a few pages back. Mamiya 6, 50mm Sekor, TMax 400 at 400, Rodinal 1:50 with 90-second agitation intervals, 11.5 minutes at 20°C. No clipped shadows except for the black borders, highlights full of detail except for specular reflections. Rodinal at 1:50 (or 1:100) really does do what has been claimed for it for 70 years. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 16 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816158'>More sharing options...
philipus Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63245 Posted September 9, 2019 Really interesting, and a wonderful result. Thank you for sharing this Andy. 5 hours ago, adan said: On the subject of "pushing": https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2012/01/same-old-disease.html Of note, some people commenting there think HP5 needs to be pushed a bit to get the best midtone contrast. Otherwise it is too muddy (ITHO). It is also of note that Harman/Ilford specifically state in their documentation that: "It should be noted that the exposure index (EI) range recommended for HP5 Plus is based on a practical evaluation of film speed and is not based on foot speed, as is the ISO standard." A lot of real-world variables in photography. Including that an MP (or any other film Leica except the quartz-timed M7) with a clockwork shutter that has not been adjusted with the past 3 years or so may well be shooting at 1/400th and 1/700th when set to 1/500th and 1/1000th. ________________________________ Anyway, since Michael brought up the Zone system, and I brought up foot speed, and variables - here's another little party trick - 13 stops of tonal range. Picture was shot to test TMax 400 using what I call "HC-55" - HC-110 dilution B diluted again 1:1 (total dilution 1:63), and agitated once every three minutes (10 minutes total time at 24°C). As a reminder, I'm trying to get the fullest tonal range out of TM400 with my new contrasty Mamiya lenses. Ideally I want a neg that is some density everywhere - nothing clipped to "empty film" - yet with sunlit "whites" that hold detail as well. In the interests of science, I actually did meter and make notes of the brightest and darkest parts of this subject, as noted on the image. My Sekonic meter in reflected mode said that if I used ISO 400 film and a shutter speed of 1/125, then - The brightest sunlit wall would require an aperture of f/64 to render as medium gray. - The darkest shadow (polka-dot counter curtain shaded by coffee stand) would require an aperture of f/0.7 to render as medium gray (Sorry, Noctilux users - it ain't fast enough!). - A mathematical average exposure based on those readings comes out as 1/125 at f/5.6 - An incident reading from the subject location (i.e. the "room light" - Sekonic again) came out as 1/125 and f/8 - a reflected overall reading of the scene came out as 1/125 and f/13 - shows how much hot highlights can "bias" a reflected reading. They can be untrustworthy. - the actual exposure was made Zone-System-style - I took that f/0.7 shadow reading, and then underexposed 3 stops to put it in Zone II (distinguishable detail and texture, not just distinguishable from black). 1/125 at f/2.0 (but since my lens was not that fast, I used the equivalent 1/30 at f/4.0). The picture does just barely hold detail distinguishable from white or black across the 13-stop range. (But you'd have to see the highlights at full res - and squint a little - to see the "bathroom tile" texture of that wall, or the wood grain in the white Treehouse logo). Coincidentally, just after doing this, I discovered a reference to Kodak's claims for "dynamic range" of B&W film - 13 stops. However, I found the "HC-55" technique to be a bit unpredictable, and not very sharp (HC-110 has a lot of grain-solvent action). Two rolls developed one after the other were quite different in shadow detail. I'm finding the Rodinal 1:50 to be more consistent roll to roll, and produce more sharpness and mid-tone contrast while still holding the highlights and shadows. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post philipus Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63246 Posted September 9, 2019 Some Ghentian colour fields, sort of, to lure Henry and Gary back Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Flickr M6TTL 50/1.4A Portra 160 (EI80) Coolscan 9000 18 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Flickr M6TTL 50/1.4A Portra 160 (EI80) Coolscan 9000 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816316'>More sharing options...
RayD28 Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63247 Posted September 9, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) 8 hours ago, Michael Hiles said: At the risk of being argumentative, development times have very little effect on the shadows. Films have a natural speed that is determined by the manufacturer. The goal of exposing is to achieve shadow area that has a density of about 0.1 when the exposure is four stops underexposed from what your meter tells you. This is what the Zone system people would call Zone I – the darkest tone that can be discerned from maximum black. The Maximum Development Chart will give you a rough place to start in determining development times to produce good highlights with some detail, but it will not provide a way of underexposing the negative and offsetting the lack of light by adjusting development. When the chart provides a time for HP5 at 800 ASA, that might be the best time for a 1 stop underexposure – it does not suggest that this will be a negative that is the equivalent of 400 ASA at the advertised time, or 200ASA at the associated time. But there is no free lunch. Development time changes will not provide a way of achieving the best negative while underexposing (or overexposing). There is no “push”, only underexpose. That does not mean the negative will be unusable, but it will be sub-optimal. Ideally, testing for the practical ASA is the way to go (which for HP5 may not be 400 ASA - I don't know - but I doubt that is 800 ASA). Once you know the ASA that produces rich shadows, you can test/adjust your development time to give you solid highlights that are usually not blown out. The MAssive Development Chart may be a place to start to test for development time. Thanks Michael. I don't think your comments are argumentative at all, but rather educational. It sounds like I need to better understand the concepts and results of pushing film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennrocky Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63248 Posted September 9, 2019 Berlin Lietzensee Minox GT-E Fuji 200 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 16 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816374'>More sharing options...
MT0227 Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63249 Posted September 9, 2019 On 9/7/2019 at 2:04 PM, philipus said: Such a strong portrait, well done Marc! Thanks for the kind words Philip. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post benqui Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63250 Posted September 9, 2019 One of my best experiences was my photowalk with Adam Miller in "his" town New York. We had so much fun and we were lucky to meet some really amazing persons on the street. Adam, thanks a lot for your hospitality, it was really an honor and a pleasure to meet you. From time to time I will show some photos Adam Miller (on the right) with a tourist from Texas M6, Zeiss Biogon 2.8/35, Portra 400 (with ISO 200) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 15 7 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816553'>More sharing options...
benqui Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63251 Posted September 9, 2019 Sorry, my fault: Adam Miller (on the left) with a New Yorker 😉 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
benqui Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63252 Posted September 9, 2019 Again with M6, Portra and Zeiss Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 10 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816560'>More sharing options...
Popular Post Xícara de Café Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63253 Posted September 9, 2019 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Nikon F2 Photomic, Micro-Nikkor 55mm 1:2.8, Kodak Tri-X 400, Kodak D-76 1:1. 24 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Nikon F2 Photomic, Micro-Nikkor 55mm 1:2.8, Kodak Tri-X 400, Kodak D-76 1:1. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816575'>More sharing options...
Shlomo Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63254 Posted September 9, 2019 1 hour ago, benqui said: Again with M6, Portra and Zeiss Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! - and Adam Miller on the left. Now I got it! Hugs and Kisses, Shlomo 😀 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Suede Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63255 Posted September 9, 2019 Mieussy in Silvermax 100. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 27 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816669'>More sharing options...
Popular Post leitna Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63256 Posted September 9, 2019 Master Carpenter Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 23 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816682'>More sharing options...
Ernest Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63257 Posted September 9, 2019 2 hours ago, Xícara de Café said: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Nikon F2 Photomic, Micro-Nikkor 55mm 1:2.8, Kodak Tri-X 400, Kodak D-76 1:1. Dauntless, the rise of the FedoraMen (FM)? 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post atournas Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63258 Posted September 9, 2019 Untitled. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 21 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816777'>More sharing options...
Popular Post Gregm61 Posted September 9, 2019 Popular Post Share #63259 Posted September 9, 2019 M6 and various lenses. 135mm f3.4 APO Telyt and T-Max 400. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 90mm f2 pre-APO Summicron. 35mm f2 ASPH (Version 1), Portra 160. 75mm f2 APO, Portra 160. 20 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 90mm f2 pre-APO Summicron. 35mm f2 ASPH (Version 1), Portra 160. 75mm f2 APO, Portra 160. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816778'>More sharing options...
atournas Posted September 9, 2019 Share #63260 Posted September 9, 2019 Banisters Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 15 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/?do=findComment&comment=3816779'>More sharing options...
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