Mini M? [MERGED] AKA X-Vario

[-ph-]

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I would buy a camera like that in a heartbeat - assuming it has a FF sensor.

Looking at the options: a rangefinder with M lenses and a smaller sensor would not be any smaller and only save a few hundred dollars in price - see M8. Live view, video are not cost drivers, modern electronics can just do that.

The only way of saving money and size is to remove the rangefinder and have a completely redesigned body, which could be more efficient to be produced. It could be much thinner than a M too, as without the rangefinder coupling the M lenses could be adapted with a reasonably thick adapter. That would give the ability to directly attach a small range of newly constructed AF lenses which have a smaller flange distance than M lenses.

 

Peter

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[TX400]

Full frame, fixed 35mm F2 , optical viewfinder, with video facility . Beautifully engineered and well screwed together. As compact as the Sony RX1 but with a red dot. $4000/£2500 ish, queuing round the block. Yes please

 

The RX-1 would be a pretty good place to look for what this could be. Its a proven concept with some key flaws with trivial fixes.

[250swb]

Well, the awful lot had many opportunities to buy very good cameras with live-view and EVF before the M 240 was even thought of. Leica isn't the only existing brand. The M 240 is an offer to the small lot, who want a rangefinder - with long waiting lists.

 

If it was the 'rangefinder' that made the deal the M9, or the ME, would have been enough for the majority of customers. It was the ability of using R lenses, and other makes, that cemented the deal for the M240. And by default you need at least Live View and/or an EVF to focus and compose those lenses efficiently, NOT an optical rangefinder.

 

So don't try to kid people that the long waiting lists are for anything else, you've read on LUF that the M9/ME is perfectly adequate as a FF digital rangefinder, so the rest, that was offered solely by the M240, is what people wanted all along. It is a kick in the teeth to most M240 owners if the next camera along, even before all the M240 orders have been fulfilled, is a crossover camera that fulfills all the criteria of extra functions but without the rangefinder.

 

Steve

[UliWer]

...

 

So don't try to kid people that the long waiting lists are for anything else, you've read on LUF that the M9/ME is perfectly adequate as a FF digital rangefinder, so the rest, that was offered solely by the M240, is what people wanted all along. It is a kick in the teeth to most M240 owners if the next camera along, even before all the M240 orders have been fulfilled, is a crossover camera that fulfills all the criteria of extra functions but without the rangefinder.

 

...

 

Well, this sums up many superfluous discussions in this forum.

 

I am not in any waiting list for the M 240, because my M9 is perfectly adaequate to what I want.

 

Many people seem to think different and want a new sensor with new electronics - and a rangefinder. Other people might want just the new sensor and electronics. They might get an offer and decide whether they like it or not.

 

Who is kicked in the teeth? The owners of the M240 saw what they got when they ordered it and bought it - it very obviously had a rangefinder. Do you own an M 240, is it your teeth you are talking about? Didn't you see your M240 had a rangefinder?

 

I am kidding whom? I am just speculating like everybody else, since nobody participating here knows what will be presented on 06/11. I may be wrong with my speculations as I often was before. So what?

[NJH]

There are 2 very different cameras I have wanted the past couple of years that don't currently exist and I would like to think this new mini M is one of them:

 

1) The aforementioned RF less M mount camera but with Ricoh GXR a-like focus peaking aids or Fuji X100S fake rangefinder patch in the EVF focusing aid (needs phase detection pixels in the sensor)

 

2) A high quality fixed lens camera that isn't a fixed focal length but has something other than dog slow AF and no decent viewfinder. In other words something like the Canon G1-X that wasn't DOA.

 

Very few people ever talk about option 2 as no one apart from Canon has dared to make it, it seems they got the lens design down pretty good and sensor/electronics but hamstrung the thing with slow AF and no decent viewfinder. If they could have put that lens onto something like the late firmware X100 or X100S they would have had a killer product on their hands. If Leica could do something like that even it was way over priced it would be totally unique in the market place and would capture a lot of sales from people that want something compact but just don't want to get into another camera 'system'. I think that even if the lens only went from say 28-70 many folks that are transfixed on a DSLR as their main camera would be perfectly happy with it as a lighter alternative. Such a camera would also definitely not cannibalise sales from the M240 for many reasons.

[mjh]

and the announcement is the same week as WWDC ... just saying ...

One thing is certain: Leica’s ability to play their cards close to their chest matches Apple’s. Prior to the teaser on their website, nobody here had the slightest idea the introduction of a new model would be just three weeks away. And even now, nobody knows what it might be.

[pico]

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And even now, nobody knows what it might be.

 

Are you stating that the guesses made so far are entirely incorrect?

[zlatkob]

But to design a camera which needs new lenses means that you have to design and to produce the new camera and to design and produce the new lenses as well - besides the products you already have and want to continue. This means a big increase in costs. If your new market is one already overgrown by other products - which any market "below" the M is, you run a very high risk.

 

That depends. If we define the market as mirrorless compact system cameras (CSC), then the market below the M is not overgrown by other products. The market is pretty empty between the many sub-$2000 cameras and the Leica M cameras. There is a large price gap where a manufacturer can deliver a high quality CSC "above" the OM-D, X-Pro1, GH3, Nex 7, etc., and "below" the M.

[A miller]

My prediction is that the Mini-M will be a cross between the M and the X2

 

X2 similarities will be:

-a fixed lens, but it will be a 35M (thinking summarit 2.8 to keep the weight down; possibly a summicron) (I can't see Leica starting a new line of interchangeable lenses for this)

-autofocus

 

M similarities will be:

-24MP FF CMOS sensor

-manual rangefinder capability (like the Ms)

-also live view with focus peaking

-video

 

The size will be between the M and X2, but closer to the X2 (along the lines of Sony's RX-1)

 

It will be priced at $3999, which is about between the X2 and M

 

This might seem ambitious for a traditionally digital technology-challenged company, but the suggestion that the release date may not be for another year or two would be consistent with this.

 

-This model will target those who who desire something more compact but aren't satisfied with the capabilities of the X2 and are willing to pay for more capability.

-Leica M lens owners and lovers will need to keep using the Ms

-It will be a reasonable (and justified) premium over the RX-1

-It will retain the portion of the X2 customer base who have maxed out at $2K (or thereabouts) for a fixed-lens camera

 

Pure speculation, but this is what I would do if I were running Leica.

 

-Adam

[lct]

- No FF to avoid cannibalizing M240 sales

- No clip-on EVF to avoid putting the M240's to shame

- No RF, too expensive (too bad)

-> German version of the Fuji X100 with interchangeable M lenses

[zlatkob]

-> German version of the Fuji X100 with interchangeable M lenses

 

That would be cool. The X100S has a lot going for it, but it doesn't have M lenses.

[StephenPatterson]

One thing is certain: Leica’s ability to play their cards close to their chest matches Apple’s. Prior to the teaser on their website, nobody here had the slightest idea the introduction of a new model would be just three weeks away. And even now, nobody knows what it might be.

 

Here's my prediction from two months ago:

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/277625-leica-m-tagline-2.html#post2358047

[jaapv]

Because THIS is how you launch a camera.

 

1. Build the suspense and interest

2. Deliver with actual cameras for sale

 

We'll see if they can make step 2 happen.

 

Let's be honest, the launch of the Typ 240 was a debacle from day 1. I think they announced it too early, launched it too soon, and ended up alienating most of the potential customers. If you give somebody 8 months to ponder a $7,000 purchase, they usually change their mind.

 

Customers that change their mind over a delay are not very serious to begin with....

8 months? The launch was in Februari-March. Counting back to a presentation on a biannual show - the most important one there is- is just showing up a deliberate intention to exaggerate, not a misjudgment by a manufacturer.

Cars are introduced at car shows, combine harvesters at trade shows, next year's hats on the catwalk, all many months before the actual launch.

[desu]

Full frame, fixed 35mm F2 , optical viewfinder, with video facility . Beautifully engineered and well screwed together. As compact as the Sony RX1 but with a red dot. $4000/£2500 ish, queuing round the block. Yes please

 

I personally doubt that. A summicron 35 asph. costs how much? Around $3000. new. That doesn't leave much room for a sensor and body. Maybe they could use a cheaper lens like the summicron 40 with the CL but to be better than the RX1 the lens would have to be superior.

[magosak]

If that's Christmas 2014, perhaps yes. It will be announced on June 11, 2013 but probably won't be available until Christmas 2014.

 

 

Whatever it turns out to be, I hope it will cannibalize enough M sales that I will get my M by Christmas

[ozmander]

:confused:You mean like the non-sloppy AF on the RX1? That is a given for compacts, unfortunately. And a CL with a fixed lens? That was a camera with M lens compatability.... An X3 with a zoom like the Digilux2? That would be sensational! Arguably the best small-format zoom ever built....

 

I agree! That would be wonderful. My concern is that while that is what they should build -- with a cutting edge sensor and EVF -- what we will get is something less than cutting edge on both those counts. That's my fear when confronted with the excitement and optimistic statements on what the Mini might be.

 

And the point I was making is that I don't understand why Leica is rolling out stores and so on when what matters more, arguably, is getting those technical details right. I don't mean the Sony RX1 or any one else for that matter has them right. Rather, I'd like Leica to be on the forefront and not settling for less. We shouldn't be saying 'phew' every time they just about catch up with the latest and greatest - like a high resolution screen.

 

This is from someone concerned about Leica who wants them around forever! Not from someone saying build an RX1 or that Fuji is better or that Leica sucks or is expensive. It's concern, not criticism or indeed comparison.

[StephenPatterson]

And the point I was making is that I don't understand why Leica is rolling out stores and so on when what matters more, arguably, is getting those technical details right...

 

Because it makes the brand command a higher price when Blackstone et al decide to cash out.

[jaapv]

The crappy screen? I agree it was not quite what it should have been. But unfortunately there was no better one on the market in the size Leica needed.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[magosak]

Customers that change their mind over a delay are not very serious to begin with....

 

So what? It's lost sales for Leica.

[Paul Reading]

What I would like to see is a digital CL with an EVF. However I do not think this will happen because I don't think you can fit a FF sensor into that small a package and accept M lenses. Having a smaller sensor makes no sense because you will not get wide enough lenses.

 

What makes sense to me is simply this. For years people in those forums have raved about the Digilux 2, the thing that was loved so much was the simplicity and ergonomics. Today with modern sensors and fantastic quality EVF's Leica can produce a top quality Digilux knowing that it will have a good market amongst existing Leica customers. It is an easy economic case to make. The investment will be low compared with coming up with a new mount and a new range of lenses, It won't compromise real M sales and it has a queue of customers clamouring for it.

 

This has to be a new Digilux but X2 quality and Zoom lens. I will only buy it if the lens starts at 24mm, the tendency is to start at 28mm and that is just too tight for me. Most of my favourite shots are with a 24mm prime.