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I am thinking of adding a 90mm to complement my current lineup, which consists of the classic Elmar four-element (1957) and the Macro-Elmar-M (current). I am happy with both of these lenses, and my basic criterion now is that the "new" lens fill a gap among (i.e. be different in some significant way from, while not making redundant) these two 90s, AND (importantly) that it be usable on both M and Barnack.

 

The three lens choices are:

 

Elmar (1962) three-elements. Pro: I understand there would be considerable improvement in sharpness over my current four-element Elmar, while retaining small size. Con: Zero increase in speed over both lenses on my current lineup.

 

Elmarit f/2.8 (1959): Pro: One-stop increase in speed over my current lineup, and retaining small size. Con: I understand no appreciable increase in sharpness over my current four-element Elmar.

 

Summicron (SEOOF) (1960): Pro: Considerable increase in speed over my current lineup. Con: Great increase in size, while probably no more sharp across most comparable apertures than the three-element Elmar.

 

My conclusion at this point is that both the three-element Elmar and the Elmarit would make my current four-element Elmar redundant, the first for sharpness, the second for the one-stop extra speed.

 

On the other hand, going for the Summicron would be like adding a totally new beast to the stable. My current Elmar would remain the go-to for portability; my current Macro-Elmar for sharpness; the "new" Summicron would be The Lens for two whole stops of extra speed.

 

However, though the above might seem cut and dried, I'm not at all sure how I'd get along with the impressive size of the old 'Cron. It certainly would not be practical to carry it as one of two 90's at the same time. This seems a good example of the phenomenon that Puts identified ("Compendium" p. 495: 'Leitz optimized the designs in different directions... a costly strategy'.) Although an all-purpose 90, combining speed, size, and sharpness, may be available today (and for some, this lens might be the Macro-Elmar), the 1960's dilemma still applies to me, since I want to keep shooting on Barnacks.

 

Advice would be kindly appreciated. Many thanks in advance! :)

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As an owner of a total of 14 90s (including a SEOOF, not to speak of the Thambar etc...)... I feel someway entitled to have an opinion about.. :p

 

- Your considerations on the 3 choices are spot on.

- The SEOOF, IF IN GOOD CONDITIONS (has a terribly wide front lens, reign of scratches and internal dust, and an "old tech" coating very prone to damage) isn't bad when compared to the Elmar 4 elem. at same apertures... indeed, around f4 to f8 it's about the same : at f2 is, of course, not so sharp (LESS than the Summarex), and, most of all, critical to be focused on a Barnack.

- The Elmar 3 elements is a little gem, which I use regularly on my M8 : but LTM version (which I haven't) is difficult to find, and costly. Imho it anyway could be your best choice, if the weight and dimension of the SEOOF are an important issue.

- ... I confess that simply don't love my Elmarit... :o ; I like a lot the Tele... but doesn't exist in SM

 

Finally... don't forget that a modern 90 in SM does exist... the CV APO Lanthar f 3,5, no more manufactured but still available somewhere (Cameraquest seems to have some) : I have always read very good reports on it (I vaguley thought to buy one 2-3 years ago... befor finding my current Elmarit-M 90 which is , simply, THE perfect 90 for me)

 

SEOOF in good shape isn't easy to find... but there is a nice item just on auction in these days (Westlicht), same age as mine.

Edited by luigi bertolotti
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Thank you very much, Luigi.

 

In the meantime, I have had a few more thoughts over lunch...

 

1. Perhaps speed is over-rated these days, anyway? To compensate for f/4 maximum aperture, today one has high ISO on digital, and superior high-speed film (at least in B&W) for the rest? Taking speed out of the equation (or lessening its relevance) would seem to take the Summicron out of serious consideration, at least as a user lens.

 

2. For the same reason (speed not so important), one of the main advantages of the Elmarit, the one-stop faster speed, seems less important.

 

3. This would leave the sharp three-element Elmar as the most compelling of the three choices, even if it offers zero speed advantage.

 

4. Now the most difficult consideration: variables other than size, speed, and sharpness. I expect the Elmars (whether three or four elements) are similar in 'personality' -- for a non-collector like me would this necessarily argue in retiring (i.e. selling) the four element?

 

Anyway, thanks again.:)

 

Also, I meant, to say: there is a copy of the Summicron being sold by NewOldCamera. Seems nice to me. But (for all the above reasons) not a straightforward choice.

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I would agree with all Luigi says about the SEOOF, my SEOOF-M is beautiful to look at and the mount is a masterpiece of precision engineering. However, its performance at f/2 has been well overhyped, it is also pretty heavy at 680g to hang on the front of a prefabricated Barnack.

A friend kindly loaned me a screw three element Elmar to test and I found it to be slightly superior to my 1962/3 screw classic Elmar across the range. Again the screw version of the three element lens is relatively rare (R7 or 8) and correspondingly expensive (afaik R.G.Lewis in Holborn, London had one in the window last week). According to the MTF charts by Puts in the Leica Pocket Book 8th Edition the 3-element Elmar should be considerably superior to the older 4-element model but no indication has been given as to the vintage of the 4-element lens tested. My 4-element Elmar was one of the last made and did not seem as inferior as the charts might suggest.

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For just my little grain of salt : I always used the 90 lens for portraiture to get the better "bouquet" from the foreground and so the 2 aperture is the best choice, staying around 3 meter from the subject.

About the weight, after all, you don't need to walk a lot to make some good portraiture.

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(afaik R.G.Lewis in Holborn, London had one in the window last week).

 

Alas, no trace of it on the RG Lewis website, but I might give them a call later, even if just to find out what it cost. Do you remember? As far as I know there are two others (also screwmounts) currently for sale at reputable dealers, one declared with fungus for 500 euros, and another for the equivalent of about 1000 euros. True, it's especially hard to get a grip on what is a fair price on such a scarce item, but even the one with fungus (of course requiring extra expense to fix) seems a bit expensive in that condition...

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Forgive my ignorance but is this the ELANG "Fat" Elmar (2,500) production?

 

No, the "fat" Elmar 90 (code ELANG) was the very first version (1930-31) of the long lived Elmar 9cm , a 4 elements design that endured the first '60s; in the above posts they are speaking of the last Elmar 90 made (also) in screw mount version. which had a new 3 elements design, and was very short lived (3 years) and made mostly in the bayonet mount version.

(our Wiki section reports all the story / years / numbers )

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Alas, no trace of it on the RG Lewis website, but I might give them a call later, even if just to find out what it cost. Do you remember? As far as I know there are two others (also screwmounts) currently for sale at reputable dealers, one declared with fungus for 500 euros, and another for the equivalent of about 1000 euros. True, it's especially hard to get a grip on what is a fair price on such a scarce item, but even the one with fungus (of course requiring extra expense to fix) seems a bit expensive in that condition...

 

I think the price was about £800 or roughly equivalent to the €1000 asked elsewhere. That web-site seems to be up-dated very rarely.

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As for the Summicron, there is a copy currently for sale at Red Dot, but a previous owner has painted it cream :eek:, and so unfortunately does not match my IIIg.

 

http://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=47_51&products_id=4347

 

UGH ! (and BLEAH !) :mad: And notice, it's not a SEOOF but the previous SOOZI (detachable hood) , very rare in screw mount, a tasty collectible... it's indecent it has had such a treatment... :eek:

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... I expect the Elmars (whether three or four elements) are similar in 'personality' -- for a non-collector like me would this necessarily argue in retiring (i.e. selling) the four element?

...

 

The 3-element Elmar is definitely different in personality from the 4-element. The 3-element despite its age is a 'modern' lens. I regularly use mine together with much more modern Leica lenses, such as the 2/35asph, the Summicron 2/50 and even the 1.4/50asph, and the results blend very well. The four element Elmar 90 is simply 'older' in personality, and thus is a better match with older lenses of its age.

 

Andy

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UGH ! (and BLEAH !) :mad: And notice, it's not a SEOOF but the previous SOOZI (detachable hood) , very rare in screw mount, a tasty collectible... it's indecent it has had such a treatment... :eek:

 

Don't be too upset Luigi, I was there the day it arrived. Ivor & I examined it together and it was an M-version that had been debayonetted,

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The four element Elmar 90 is simply 'older' in personality, and thus is a better match with older lenses of its age.

 

Thanks, Andy. Would you say that the Elmarit 2.8 (I) is similarly "older" in personality, like the four-element Elmar? Or how else might one characterise the old Elmarit? I have read in other threads, for example, comments ranging from that among the old 90s it has THE most classic Leica fingerprint and best bokeh, to that it is an overhyped and reincarnated five-element Hektor-type dinosaur (Lars of course was able to put this last argument much more tactfully than that ;)).

 

For sure, the Elmarit is also scarce and pricey in screwmount, though not quite as much so as the three-element Elmar.

 

I must say, despite what I said before about high ISO, that I find myself wishing occasionally for an extra stop of speed. In other words, I might be slightly averse to having three 90s, all with f/4 maximum aperture

 

Maybe the Elmarit is the one for me, after all. I have the "modern" personality of the three-element Elmar covered already by the Macro-Elmar-M, even if I can't put that on my Barnack...

 

Any more thoughts?:)

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Don't be too upset Luigi, I was there the day it arrived. Ivor & I examined it together and it was an M-version that had been debayonetted,

If you dont mind : "It was a genuine Screw version, factory bayonetted and red doted, next debayonetted"

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Hello Al,

 

If I remember correctly there were some white or cream painted 90mm Summicrons made at the factory by Leitz for some reason. If Luigi doesn't remember you might ask Jean Claude or Pierre.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

Indeed I don't remember to have ever read of a Summicron 90 MB ("Moby Dick" :D)...

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