Tasker Posted May 13, 2013 Share #1 Posted May 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I do not yet own the M type 240 because to my knowledge there are none in the London dealers yet and my established dealer suffers from repeated dishonoured delivery time promises. However one day it will arrive but in the wait I have come to ask myself if it is going to be too good to use. I am a serious amateur and have used the M system for over 30 years including M8 and M9. I know superb results can be obtained. However, they obviously require critical sharpness i.e absence of camera shake and bang on focus. Whether you can achieve that is of course a question of skill and part of the fascination of using the Leica, operating with no autofocus aids and no camera shake aids. I can live with my failure rate (e.g. where camera shake has ruined the image) with the M9 and its 18mp sensor but wonder what the experience is of people who have experience of the 24mp sensor in the M type 240? It is significantly more sensitive and therefore must show up errors more easily. Cranking up the ISO with its better noise ratios seems only a partial answer because you are still loosing some of the detail the superb lenses record. Has Leica gone too far in putting such a sensitive sensor in a purely manuel camera if the camera is used out in the real world? I wonder if the 18mp sensor with the type 240 body might have been a better bet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 13, 2013 Posted May 13, 2013 Hi Tasker, Take a look here M240 too good to use?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
01af Posted May 13, 2013 Share #2 Posted May 13, 2013 The amount of image degradation you're going to see in your pictures as a consequence of camera shake in hand-held shots depends on a) the amount of camera shake, and the size of your prints. It does not depend on the number of megapixels. So if your M9 (or M8 or M3 or whatever) pictures are sharp enough then your M pictures will be sharp enough as well. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted May 13, 2013 Share #3 Posted May 13, 2013 Welcome to the forum. Your query doesn't make any sense to me. Being able to focus a lens and hold a camera steady are basic requirements for anyone. Even with AF you need to ensure you have the correct point of focus. Can't hold a camera steady enough? Use a tripod! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted May 13, 2013 Share #4 Posted May 13, 2013 Welcome to the forum. Your query doesn't make any sense to me. Being able to focus a lens and hold a camera steady are basic requirements for anyone. Evidently not....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 13, 2013 Share #5 Posted May 13, 2013 ...Cranking up the ISO with its better noise ratios seems only a partial answer because you are still loosing some of the detail the superb lenses record... I would not worry too much about that. Look at the level of detail i got at 2000 iso with an Elmar 90/4 macro by just putting the cam on a stack of books. Would be even better on a good tripod and if your sight is not as good as it used to be, the EVF helps a lot to focus on static subjects. Forget it for moving ones though. http://tinyurl.com/c2sllfs (32 MB file) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted May 13, 2013 Share #6 Posted May 13, 2013 The amount of image degradation you're going to see in your pictures as a consequence of camera shake in hand-held shots depends on a) the amount of camera shake, and the size of your prints. It does not depend on the number of megapixels. So if your M9 (or M8 or M3 or whatever) pictures are sharp enough then your M pictures will be sharp enough as well. .... Never thought of that way but it totally makes sense. Folks talk about Nikon 800's 36 mega pixel being more sensitive to camera shake but the above comment makes it clear that for making "same size" prints it is not a factor. Thanks for the insight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted May 13, 2013 Share #7 Posted May 13, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Empirically, I note no difference in IQ sensitivity to camera shake between the 24mp M240, the 18mp M9, or the MM. They're all good. Welcome to the forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 14, 2013 Share #8 Posted May 14, 2013 Empirically, I note no difference in IQ sensitivity to camera shake between the 24mp M240, the 18mp M9, or the MM. They're all good. Welcome to the forum... +1. OP-- The next M I get I will not use, but for now this one I currently own I love to use and as my eye sight is failing and my steadiness is no where close to where it was even 5 years ago, I manage to get sharp images that print out to 24x36 with ease. Look at some posts here and elsewhere. If you have questions about how they were taken I can look at my EXIF data for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecar Posted May 14, 2013 Share #9 Posted May 14, 2013 For some reason, I find the rangefinder on the M240 more accurate (and it's not just the 2m framelines) to achieve critical focussing than that of the M8 or M9. But maybe it's just a subjective impression. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 14, 2013 Share #10 Posted May 14, 2013 I have heard this issue multiple times in multiple forums for multiple cameras Its a myth You have to be steady for every camera I found no difference between a D800E and a X100 the only thing is that more megapixels exposes bad technique more multiples of times Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronaldh Posted May 14, 2013 Share #11 Posted May 14, 2013 (edited) As well as the improved focussing, in my short experience with the M240 I find that the much smoother shutter release results in less camera shake than with the M9 Edited May 14, 2013 by ronaldh typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikasmg Posted May 14, 2013 Share #12 Posted May 14, 2013 ... It is significantly more sensitive and therefore must show up errors more easily. ... I wonder if the 18mp sensor with the type 240 body might have been a better bet. I don't understand this logic at all. Only blowing up the image to larger sizes would show up more shake in any given image .... - Vikas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALD Posted May 14, 2013 Share #13 Posted May 14, 2013 Tasker has raised some pretty important points. If there is no image quality loss by increasing the iso well above 800 iso on the new M so that the shutter speed can be increased then shaky hands can be accommodated for. No need to attack our fellow leica man who admits to having leica for 30 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 14, 2013 Share #14 Posted May 14, 2013 +1. OP-- The next M I get I will not use, .................... What will you do with it, if I may ask? (I'm not going to criticise, just curious.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted May 14, 2013 Share #15 Posted May 14, 2013 I don't understand this logic at all. Only blowing up the image to larger sizes would show up more shake in any given image .... I think that's the point. Keeping dpi (or ppi if you prefer) equal, the extra megapixels will print to (or likely be viewed at) a larger size. This is most apparent when viewing on a screen at 100%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted May 14, 2013 Share #16 Posted May 14, 2013 Tasker has raised some pretty important points. If there is no image quality loss by increasing the iso well above 800 iso on the new M so that the shutter speed can be increased then shaky hands can be accommodated for. No need to attack our fellow leica man who admits to having leica for 30 years. I don't read anyone as attacking the OP. I read them as offering their opinion(s) on affecting parameters with respect to sharpness or loss of it due to camera shake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted May 14, 2013 Share #17 Posted May 14, 2013 I do not yet own the M type 240 because to my knowledge there are none in the London dealers yet and my established dealer suffers from repeated dishonoured delivery time promises. However one day it will arrive but in the wait I have come to ask myself if it is going to be too good to use. I am a serious amateur and have used the M system for over 30 years including M8 and M9. I know superb results can be obtained. However, they obviously require critical sharpness i.e absence of camera shake and bang on focus. Whether you can achieve that is of course a question of skill and part of the fascination of using the Leica, operating with no autofocus aids and no camera shake aids. I can live with my failure rate (e.g. where camera shake has ruined the image) with the M9 and its 18mp sensor but wonder what the experience is of people who have experience of the 24mp sensor in the M type 240? It is significantly more sensitive and therefore must show up errors more easily. Cranking up the ISO with its better noise ratios seems only a partial answer because you are still loosing some of the detail the superb lenses record. Has Leica gone too far in putting such a sensitive sensor in a purely manuel camera if the camera is used out in the real world? I wonder if the 18mp sensor with the type 240 body might have been a better bet. They, they being some of the early testers of the D800, said the same thing about shake and high shutter speeds being needed with all those megapixels. Total BS. I have handheld my D800 down to 1/8sec just to prove it could be done and regularly use 1/15th in low light situations. Just like my Leica's. Having a lens that balances well on the body is very important for handholding. Most Leica lenses balance exceptionally well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted May 14, 2013 Share #18 Posted May 14, 2013 As you get older waiting for the M240 to become available, coupled with the worry that you may drop an expensive camera due to failing lugs, I think shaking hands could be a major contributor. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted May 14, 2013 Share #19 Posted May 14, 2013 What will you do with it, if I may ask? (I'm not going to criticise, just curious.) Just joking, if I have two I will use two- one for M lenses and the other for R lenses 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug_m Posted May 15, 2013 Share #20 Posted May 15, 2013 For some reason, I find the rangefinder on the M240 more accurate (and it's not just the 2m framelines) to achieve critical focussing than that of the M8 or M9.But maybe it's just a subjective impression. Leica Germany has told me that the RF on the new M is indeed more accurate than the RF used on past editions. I have found this to be true on my new M as well. You have to give Leica a lot of credit for both adding EVF and improving the RF- the best of both worlds! My new M is in Germany to get the dreaded strap lug eval and treatment. They also replaced the sensor board after confirming my suspicion that the electronics were acting up. Although I am not happy about sending the camera back to Germany I have nothing but good things to say about the service. The new M is also the best M ever which made sending it back so soon after purchase painful. But such is life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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