martha Posted May 10, 2013 Share #1 Posted May 10, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I am thinking about buying a Fuji 100S as a complement (and in certain circumstances, an alternative) to my Leica M9-P. Will I be totally confused with buttons and wheels and options when switching from one to the other or are the workings of the Fuji as intuitive as the M9? Discuss and enlighten, please. --martha Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 10, 2013 Posted May 10, 2013 Hi martha, Take a look here Fuji 100S acquisition?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
iedei Posted May 10, 2013 Share #2 Posted May 10, 2013 Martha, As somebody who looked at the Fuji X100 a few months ago....the buttons and menus are very confusing....i didn't like them at all. I ended up buying a used Ricoh GRD3 which is such a cool camera. There is a brand new Ricoh GR which has JUST been introduced with a larger APS-C sensor, comes with a fixed lens 28mm. these Ricohs are built so much nicer than the Fujis with very intuitive menus. I would recommend you at least look at that as well during your search for an M9 companion! If you're shooting street, then the Ricoh is definitely the better camera IMO. best, 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 10, 2013 Share #3 Posted May 10, 2013 I am thinking about buying a Fuji 100S as a complement (and in certain circumstances, an alternative) to my Leica M9-P. Will I be totally confused with buttons and wheels and options when switching from one to the other or are the workings of the Fuji as intuitive as the M9? Discuss and enlighten, please. --martha What makes the Fuji X100s so popular is that it's very easy to use and is really enjoyable as a "quasi-rangefinder" fixed lens camera. For M users, it's a camera that will feel familiar. The lens focus ring, aperture ring, and shutter speed dial are all there. Once the camera is set up internally to the way you want it, using it is as simple as a Leica. And that's it's strength (at least for me.) I bought one two weeks ago and within an hour was all set up and ready to go. The manual still sits untouched in the box and I've yet to read it. Even if one used it as a P&S with just out of camera jpegs only and at the default settings, the results will be very good. There are three custom settings for jpegs and also for auto ISO (which is extremely useful.) Once you set them up, then you can just go back and forth with them using the Q button. The jpegs are some of the best I've encountered. And the manual focusing is excellent on the new Fuji X100s. There are three ways of manual focusing (plus one very quick and efficient 'trick' and that is to manually focus and then tap the AF lock button and it instantly locks into focus.) The only issue with manual focusing is that the focus peaking method is in white instead of red or yellow. That may be addressed in a firmware update. But the new split image manual focusing method is really great and it's what I use all the time. That all said, there are 'tricks' for using the camera more effectively. And admittedly those aren't so readily apparent. There is a good FujiX forum that has all the info you'll need to learn those tricks (FujiX Forums.) It's worth the effort since the camera has great potential for what it is (a small fixed lens camera that feels almost like a Leica M and with 16MP APS-C sensor and an excellent hybrid viewfinder.) Understanding 'all the buttons' is not a problem with this camera, but every camera of this type does have a certain bit of a learning curve. And yes, it does have some issues that you should know about (and are expressed by other users, not just myself.) 1) the battery consumption is pretty poor and the icon goes from 'still good' to 'red/needs recharging' right away without warning (this may be corrected in later firmware updates.) Buy an extra battery or two. 2) the on/off switch is too easy to turn; it's too loose. This has been a complaint by other owners, too. There is of course a power shut off setting but having it turn on and off so easily is unfortunate. I've put a small piece of tape under the on/off switch and that gives it a bit more resistance. 3) Exposure and auto focusing while very good, is not always consistent. It's a bit quirky but you can learn to understand and live with it. Again, this may be addressed in a firmware update (Fuji is good at listening and does do a lot of firmware updates; there is already a new one out.) 4) the lens is very good and contrasty but it's sharp in the center and not so much at the sides and edges. The out of focus rendering can be a bit busy with highlights (compared to the Elmarit of the X2.) 5) the RAW development isn't quite there yet. Aperture does pretty well and so does ACR. There is SilkyPix (a CD comes with the camera) and it does the best, but is horrible to use. There is also Accuraw (an inexpensive Mac app) that does well. too. But so far C1, RPP, and Iridient don't yet support the X100s. 6) And along those issues, there is something about the X-Trans sensors that can show up with certain subject matter and under certain conditions. There can be a 'chroma smearing' or 'watercolor' look to the files. It's also been called a 'plastic' look. There is a lot of discussion about this on the internet. Whether you see it (or if it bothers you) is not guaranteed but it's there. I noticed it and it caused concerned. I think with better RAW development this will be addressed, however it can be seen on jpegs too. So it's more part of the X-Trans sensor's 'look.' Users of the X-Pro1 (which also has the X-Trans sensor) seem to be okay with the look, but then again there is more support with that camera (such as very good C1 RAW processing.) There are other little quirky things about the Fuji X100s. But aside from the X-Trans sensor characteristics, those things are pretty easily overcome. The overall package is really very nice. It's one of the most enjoyable cameras to use on a daily basis and is one of those cameras that you just can't seem to put down; you want to always use it. And that is one reason why it has a lot of satisfied owners. The ergonomics (for a Leica M user) are the least of its issues and the buttons and menu are not a problem at all (they do make intuitive sense, just give it a little time and learn the tricks.) But it's a camera that excels at certain things and not everything. Then again, that's the same for any camera. I highly recommend the Fuji X100s, but I'd also suggest renting one or trying to use one before you decide. 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_w Posted May 11, 2013 Share #4 Posted May 11, 2013 I owned an X100 briefly last year and returned it out of disappointment with the results. I was surprised at the difference between the rave reviews on the web -- including many respected reviewers -- and what I was seeing on the screen and on paper. The gap to my M9/35mm combo was just not acceptable. I have used older APS-C SLRs which performed better. Also, it is not really much smaller or lighter than the M outfit (depending on lens, of course); worth remembering if that is a factor. That said, there are others on here very happy with the camera. My 2c worth would be make sure you buy from a retailer with a no-quibbles return and do your own evaluation. Come and tell us what you think. Best of luck with your choice 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 11, 2013 Share #5 Posted May 11, 2013 fwiw, I also have the X2 (I sold the M9 last year and decided to stay only with film M bodies but that's another story ) In respect to the image files, I find that both the X2 and the X100s are very much on par with each other but with perhaps a few extra points going to the Elmarit lens on the X2. It seems to have a bit more sharpness from edge to edge and its out of focus rendering is also a bit nicer (to my eyes.) But otherwise it's hard to tell the images apart. Both are 16MP APS-C sensors with pretty much the same focal length (a 24mm and a 23mm) and are probably a proper 'apples to apples' sort of comparison. I personally have no real issues with quality of the images from the X100s and with proper use of the camera's strengths and some good editing, they can be pretty impressive as prints. But with some subject matter under certain conditions, you can get that odd sort of 'watercolor' appearance. So far, Aperture seems to handle that issue the best out of all the RAW developers that currently support the X100s. I personally like both cameras and for their own specific personalities. I could post comparison images (and crops) of both the X2 and the X100s if anyone is interested. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted May 12, 2013 Share #6 Posted May 12, 2013 I could post comparison images (and crops) of both the X2 and the X100s if anyone is interested. I'd be really interested in this comparison - and also some examples of the watercolor rendering, and if possible what you think are the 'certain conditions' that provoke the effect. Incidentally, in my mailbox this morning was the news that Iridient Developer now supports the X100s by using Apple's Raw library. I've always found Iridient to be very good at rendering detail - I wonder if there's any improvement for the X-trans sensors here? btw: thanks VERY much for the detailed and unbiased appraisal. The internet tends to encourage the 'what I bought is best' or 'I bought it and it was rubbish' type of contribution, so your thoughtful and balanced approach is genuinely appreciated. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martha Posted May 12, 2013 Author Share #7 Posted May 12, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) btw: thanks VERY much for the detailed and unbiased appraisal. The internet tends to encourage the 'what I bought is best' or 'I bought it and it was rubbish' type of contribution, so your thoughtful and balanced approach is genuinely appreciated. Ditto my thanks as well: a thought provoking assessment. Yes, PLEASE post some image examples. --martha 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 12, 2013 Share #8 Posted May 12, 2013 I'd be really interested in this comparison - and also some examples of the watercolor rendering, and if possible what you think are the 'certain conditions' that provoke the effect. Incidentally, in my mailbox this morning was the news that Iridient Developer now supports the X100s by using Apple's Raw library. I've always found Iridient to be very good at rendering detail - I wonder if there's any improvement for the X-trans sensors here? Yes, PLEASE post some image examples. Thanks very much for the news about Iridient. I really appreciate that information. I'm a user of the software but I guess I'm not on their mailing list. I didn't know about this new update. I downloaded it today and it works with the X100s RAF files. It is slow opening the files, but that's the nature of these Fuji RAF files from the X-Trans sensor. Apparently the demosaicing algorithms are complex. Here's an explanation of why: ChromaSoft: Demosaicing the Fuji X-Pro1 and its X-Trans CMOS sensor It's written by the developer of Accuraw and is in four chapters. It's worth the read if you want to know about the X-Trans and the unique issues that come with it. A general consensus by many is that Fuji should have worked closer with developers and had RAW support fully in place before marketing the X-Trans. Give me a couple of days and I'll post a comparison image with the X2 and the X100s here. And I'll post some general real world images from both cameras and put them up off site somewhere and provide the link so that you can look at your leisure. I'll also provide examples of the 'watercolor' effect. In the meantime you can Google: "FujiX100s smearing watercolor." You'll get plenty of hits. As I've alluded to already, I was a bit apprehensive when I first looked carefully at files from the X100s. Fuji has played some tricks with the X-Trans sensor to give it good ISO capabilities and for minimum moire without using a low pass filter. But those tricks can sometimes show other issues. Nonetheless, I feel that there's a lot of potential with this APS-C camera. And the overall user experience is quite enjoyable (that's very important to me personally.) Based on that, I do recommend it (while taking into consideration some of its eccentricities that I mentioned earlier.) In respect to the X2, the Fuji has more electronic functionality that does come in handy. However the X2 is also a pleasure to use due to its simplicity and lack of extras. But there are times I wish it had what the Fuji has, and especially a built-in EVF/OVF hybrid viewfinder. Cameras are so subjective in respect to what's 'worth buying' but I will say that the Fuji X100s is very capable of producing excellent images in the right hands, and its form factor can be easily adopted by a Leica M user. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucisPictor Posted May 13, 2013 Share #9 Posted May 13, 2013 I had the chance to shoot with an X100s recently. And - having the experience of shooting with the "old" X100 for three months - I need to say that the X100s is a much better camera. Most of the drawbacks of the X100 have been eliminated by Fuji. The X100s is fun. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomlianza Posted May 14, 2013 Share #10 Posted May 14, 2013 Ditto my thanks as well: a thought provoking assessment. Yes, PLEASE post some image examples. --martha My experience with the x100 has been very good. I produced two images on an HP3100 comparing the M9 and x100 at 24 inches on the height of a landscape frame. Most photographers I showed the images to could not tell which camera produced which image. There was lots of confusion about which image was "best". The low light performance of the x100 is much better than the M9. The handling of images in camera, that means sRGB and Adobe RGB is, in my opinion, much better in the Fuji than in the M9. Naturally, in a raw environment, all bets are off. The comparison images I produced were done in Lightroom using the native processing development. My M9 is currently in the shop being cleaned and focus checked with my summilux 35 and 75mm lens. I am using a Fuji x pro1 with the M adapter and my other lenses. It works very well and the low light performance is just great. Fuji makes a great camera and they make great lenses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 14, 2013 Share #11 Posted May 14, 2013 Martha and plasticman, I've sent you both a pm with a link to some comparisons (can't really post anything here worthwhile due to file size.) As an overview, OOC jpegs and AWB are much better with the Fuji than with the X2. They are less saturated and more natural. Especially reds, pinks, and fuchsia. AWB is almost perfect every time with the Fuji. But with RAW processing one can get the files of both cameras to look very good and all it takes is effort and a processing technique for each (they both require their own special attention.) And as far as everyday image making (i.e., real world photographs) they are both excellent. So far for me, the Fuji has an edge in its overall use factor and has a lot of functionality that the X2 does not have. e.g., the EVF on the Fuji is far better with higher resolution than the Olympus/Leica EVF (I assume Leica will be producing a better one soon for the M240.) I personally think most all cameras on the market today have excellent quality in respect to the images they are capable of producing. How they feel in your hand and how you enjoy using them is subjective but obviously very important. Try renting or borrowing from your vendor before committing. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martha Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted May 15, 2013 Martha and plasticman, I've sent you both a pm with a link to some comparisons (can't really post anything here worthwhile due to file size.) As an overview, OOC jpegs and AWB are much better with the Fuji than with the X2. They are less saturated and more natural. Especially reds, pinks, and fuchsia. AWB is almost perfect every time with the Fuji. But with RAW processing one can get the files of both cameras to look very good and all it takes is effort and a processing technique for each (they both require their own special attention.) And as far as everyday image making (i.e., real world photographs) they are both excellent. So far for me, the Fuji has an edge in its overall use factor and has a lot of functionality that the X2 does not have. e.g., the EVF on the Fuji is far better with higher resolution than the Olympus/Leica EVF (I assume Leica will be producing a better one soon for the M240.) I personally think most all cameras on the market today have excellent quality in respect to the images they are capable of producing. How they feel in your hand and how you enjoy using them is subjective but obviously very important. Try renting or borrowing from your vendor before committing. Thanks again, CalArts. I just PM'd you as well. For the rest of you, I really could NOT see much difference between the two and had to ask him which was from which camera in the blind test. I was unable to determine difference with the street images. Good advice to rent or borrow, first. I am thinking that my major problem with the two would be the learning curve of the Fuji controls. We'll see.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted May 15, 2013 Share #13 Posted May 15, 2013 Really interesting comparison - I urge anyone weighing-up a decision between these cameras to PM CalArts for the link. Impossible to say which of these cameras produces the better 'IQ' (which seems to be the obsession of most of us these days). One thing is for sure: as Martha said, the street images showed how unimportant the equipment is, as both cameras produced really dimensional and rich images. One thing I've noticed is how many pro photographers are adding the X100s as their 'walkaround' camera. One amongst many, Daniel Milnor is touring Australia with Blurb, and took it along for the ride. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 15, 2013 Share #14 Posted May 15, 2013 That was an interesting little essay, thanks for the link. He says some things that strike the same chord for me, too. My Leica M film cameras will disappear in my hands whereas no digital camera I've used so far can do the same. I'm always aware of the digital aspect and that I have several choices to make in respect to producing the image. The Fuji does come pretty close but I think that has to do primarily with its excellent viewfinder. But then again, one has the choice of using the EVF or OVF. And so on and on it goes.... I also see this camera like he does, as a "little color sketchbook" and that's how I've been using it, too. I find that a digital camera is a great device as a storyboard for bigger projects (that I more often end up doing with film.) The Fuji is really quite enjoyable to use (despite its quirkiness and some niggling issues) and it does tend to become a sort of sketchbook device. Just about every camera out there is very capable. It ends up being what feels right in one's hands and what they are comfortable with using. It's all good stuff. And when he says, "attempting to make great images is really damn hard," well, that is the issue. It's not about the cameras. Talking about gear is the easy stuff. It's more constructive to talk about the images themselves. But that's never as easy. Anyway, it's human nature to want to be sure to buy the best camera in the hopes that the best images will miraculously pop out of it. It's kind of a security blanket. Yet at the same time we all know the reality... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted May 15, 2013 Share #15 Posted May 15, 2013 Fuji really are getting it right at the moment. They are delivering cameras that meet my - and many other people's - needs. Leica could learn a thing or three. Regards, Bill 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted May 16, 2013 Share #16 Posted May 16, 2013 Will I be totally confused with buttons and wheels and options when switching from one to the other or are the workings of the Fuji as intuitive as the M9? I'm having a lot of fun with the X100S. CalArts 99 has summed up the strengths and weaknesses of of the X100S very well. I'll just add that the workings of the X100S are not as intuitive as those of the M9. They do require some additional time and effort to learn. However it is well worth learning the camera's quirks and shortcuts. There is a logic to the design, even if it's not the same logic as that of the M9. The key is to use it enough and to customize it enough to get past the initial learning period. During the initial learning period, there is a lot of going into the menus and occasionally checking the manual. But after a while, the camera's workings start to sink in and become 2nd nature. At that point, the camera starts to become more and more fun. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martha Posted May 16, 2013 Author Share #17 Posted May 16, 2013 Fuji really are getting it right at the moment. They are delivering cameras that meet my - and many other people's - needs. Leica could learn a thing or three. Regards, Bill Bill: Seems to me (without ever having either a 100s or an M240 in my hands that Leica made a feeble attempt with the latter. This opinion is based solely on anecdotal evidence and reading stuff here. I DO agree with your final statement. thanks. martha 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TX400 Posted May 17, 2013 Share #18 Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) I would like to echo some of the previous posts regarding the x100s compared to the M9 and I wrote down the following to collect my own thoughts on the matter: I pre-ordered the x100s, got it, tried it, and sold it to an acquaintance. It was not a suitable complement to an M for me. Why? Ultimately it's an automatic electric camera (like automatic electric film cameras such as the GR1v and unlike an epson rd-1 manual digital camera) The x100s is a very cool product, however for the person out to capture photos, the nostalgialicious, skeumorphic rotary controls don't deliver as well as traditional automatic electric control schemes of the last 20 years (e.g. GR series) or at all in the same way as the mechanical ones they imitate (i.e. 1950s-1970s cameras) I found that the x100s interface didn't have good usability in practical shooting: My best snapshots were in the auto exposure program modes with the compensation dial. When I tried to manual focus and manually set Aperture and shutter speeds I was met with the following challenges: •The meter was really hard to read in both viewfinder modes •The metering freezes when AE lock engages (even when the planned exposure is set the metering should still respond, no?) •The aperture ring has full stops only •It is difficult to manual focus by feel with… •No external focus scale •Poor manual focus feedback in optical VF mode •The metering and focusing on-sensor prevent quick shutter release; but more significantly than the amount of delay is the variability thereof according to light levels and scene contrast. •Overall analysis paralysis with customizing the controls distracted me from shooting images. Obviously the x100s isn't a manual rangefinder, but fuji seems to market it as having similar capabilities. For me it is both a poor automatic electric camera and a poor electric substitute for a mechanical rangefinder camera. I wanted an image producer, not jewelry or something to admire over coffee, so away it went. I don't think I understood the flaws (from my perspective) of the control scheme at the time I ordered this camera, nor the extent to which it was important to me to have an inconspicuous producer rather than a toy. I have gone back to using my canon s95 and M and I'd recommend the new Ricoh GR if you find that your feelings towards these compacts resonate with mine. Edited May 17, 2013 by TX400 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted May 17, 2013 Share #19 Posted May 17, 2013 I like the Ricohs a lot. I'd like to try out the new GR. I used the GR1 film camera in the past and I liked the shape and build quality. The new GR isn't quite yet available (I think this week maybe) but here's a seemingly balanced review from a long time Ricoh user: Review: The 2013 Ricoh GR (digital V) – Ming Thein | Photographer It's nice that he has the temerity and the integrity to be honest and upfront and not take his own preferences as a kind of status or something. He doesn't say things like "however for the person out to capture photos" or "an inconspicuous producer rather than a toy." I like that he spells out both the pros and cons rather than posting an editorial about himself (which so many reviewers seem to be doing these days.) He also doesn't say things like, "I wanted an image producer, not jewelry or something to admire over coffee..." Indeed, a specific camera as a useable tool is always going to be a subjective choice. However that subjectivity shouldn't be emphasized in a supercilious manner. Discussing a commodity while taking oneself out of the equation can be difficult to do. But unfortunately it tends to become a way for many people to define themselves over others. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
viramati Posted May 18, 2013 Share #20 Posted May 18, 2013 The new X100s is remarkable camera given it's price and size. it adopts the latest fuji menu system with the Quick menu button/feature that makes it 100% easier to use than the original X100 menu.. whether the adoption of the xtrans sensor is the right move I am not sure. I have to say that I sold my X100 and bought the X20 as my pocketable go anywhere camera as I wanted something a little more versatile lens wise and I am loving it. The only thing I could never really get used to with the X100 was the crop sensor giving my such a limited shallow DOF wide open. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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