Basal Skull Posted April 14, 2013 Share #1 Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Sent my M9 and 50 lux out for service (for recalibration after a fall from wait height accident - don't ask...). Was promised 6 week turnaround. Left my camera at the local dealer Jan 2. Still not back:mad: Missed spring break, missed cherry blossoms, couple of birthdays, pretty frustrating. Sorry just venting/disappointed. Out of curiosity what are people finding the turnaround time to be for similar work? Edited April 14, 2013 by Basal Skull Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 14, 2013 Posted April 14, 2013 Hi Basal Skull, Take a look here slow leica service/turn around. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #2 Posted April 14, 2013 Dropped my M9 + Noctilux recently. Serious damage to both. I couriered them direct to Solms. Three weeks later they returned to me in Australia, completely rebuilt. I also phoned Customer Service and had a conversation about the damage etc. The gear was couriered directly back to me. I think most of these delays occurs at dealer level and Customs clearances. Leica definitely have a good system for clearing Customs if you complete their online service request documents. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #3 Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Sent my MM + 50 Lux in for repair early in february. Got it back 5 weeks after repaired The top cover was loose after the repair Had to send it back to Solms again Waited 3 weeks and got it back The top cover is firmly attached now The rangefinder is now not calibrated as it should (at infinity it is always out of focus) Now I have to send it in AGAIN... I am extremely disappointed by the slow and low-quality service I have received. The initial service was a paid service - about €1600. I have complained to Leica and my local dealer about this and demand that they sort this out in a very predictable manner, and that all the shipping should be done with express 24hr delivery paid by Leica. I have several photography workshops from the 20th of May that I absolutely need the camera for... And I can't risk sending it in again due to the slow and unpredictable service in Solms... Maybe when I get the camera back next time something else is wrong with it. After these incidents it is clear to me that if you want to shoot Leica gear and you are dependant on the camera you absolutely need two M cameras. Because if you get a issue with one it will basically take several months to get it fixed in a proper way. Edited April 14, 2013 by borge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #4 Posted April 14, 2013 Borge, a three points to be clear on. 1. The turnaround time for service is realistic, excluding shippingtime, dependent on where you ship from. 2. Needing a camera for ... whatever.... is not the issue. I have been there, done that all my life. The reality is, whatever camera you have, it is not enough on its own. You MUST always have backup alternatives, because shit happens. If you are a student and can't afford that luxury, that's tough, but that's how it is. 3. The fact that your gear was not fixed properly is not good. The fact that the second time it is still not right is really bad. I would consider politely requesting your dealer or whoever you are going through, provide you with a loaner camera. Demanding will get you nowhere. I wish you well with your problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #5 Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Borge, a three points to be clear on.1. The turnaround time for service is realistic, excluding shippingtime, dependent on where you ship from. 2. Needing a camera for ... whatever.... is not the issue. I have been there, done that all my life. The reality is, whatever camera you have, it is not enough on its own. You MUST always have backup alternatives, because shit happens. If you are a student and can't afford that luxury, that's tough, but that's how it is. 3. The fact that your gear was not fixed properly is not good. The fact that the second time it is still not right is really bad. I would consider politely requesting your dealer or whoever you are going through, provide you with a loaner camera. Demanding will get you nowhere. I wish you well with your problems. 1. No it isn't. The first repair took 5 weeks. I was quoted 2-3 weeks at max. It took Leica almost two weeks to prepare the documents for shipping the camera back to me (I have documentation from Leica CS on this). This is not realistic at all. 2. My point is that with ALL other brands you do get your camera fixed much quicker, or, you automatically get a loaner if you pay for it when you deliver your camera to service. This is not possible with Leica cameras. 3. I see no reason to be polite. I don't need Leica - there are many alternatives. Leica, being the small niche brand that they are, need to take care of their customers however. I am in the position to demand - not the opposite. In under one year I have purchased a new MM + 50 Lux + 35 FLE and paid €1600 for service and repair. If Leica makes me unhappy I take my business elsewhere. It's that simple. For the cost of the Leica gear and service I expect top-notch service and quality - not subpar quality, slow delivery times and expensive costs. Also, I don't want a M9/M9-P as a loaner. It is not the same camera, and it doesn't provide anywhere near the same possibilities for my style of shooting as shooting with a MM. So it is basically an uninteresting proposal. And the dealers or Leica themself cannot provide a MM loaner. I had a Fujifilm X-Pro1 a while back that - after 4 months - I discovered a production defect with. Do you want to know how Fujifilm handled this? My local dealer did not want to DoA the camera so I sent an email directly to Fujifilm Norway and explained the situation. Half an hour later the country CEO sent me an email personally saying that they of course would resolve the issue for me. Fifteen minutes after that Fujifilm in Sweden called me personally and asked me for my address so that they could ship me a new Fujifilm X-Pro1 body the same day with express delivery. I received the new camera the day after. Fujifilm then sent me a prepaid return slip for the defective camera. And that was that, I never heard anything about it again. That is good service. And it wasn't even paid service. And it was quick. And it was personal. And they really showed a really good will to resolve the problem even though I wasn't entitled to it. Considering the costs of Leica gear and their service I expect and demand even better service. if not - Leica has failed in my eyes when it comes to treating their customers properly. I have 3-4 "test certificates" from Leica now that are hand signed by someone. They are all completely worthless and a waste of paper and ink. I also have two "sensor cleaning" bills from Leica that are also completely worthless and a waste of paper. Both times they cleaned the sensor the sensor came back unacceptably dirty and I immediately have to clean it properly myself. Leica did invite me to their service premises in Solms in their last mail however (I was very demanding and fed up on waiting) so that I could see how they worked. Maybe I should take them up on that, if they pay for the trip. I would actually like to supervise the 3rd service / repair of my own camera so that I know that the person that does the job actually does it 100% properly. Edited April 14, 2013 by borge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookeye Posted April 14, 2013 Share #6 Posted April 14, 2013 Børge, I am sorry to hear of your and other people's bad experiences with Leica CS. I think you are perfectly light, of course. And I also believe the only way to incite Leica to improve is to shout at them, just like you do. You are doing all of us a favour. Thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertJRB Posted April 14, 2013 Share #7 Posted April 14, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have had only really good experience with leica's service. Send in my old M8 4 weeks before I left for holiday. It needed to be calibrated. Got it back in time working perfectly. They even used a faster delivery service to get it in time. My dealer went to the store on sunday (when they are closed) to give me my camera so I could take it along (left on holiday monday morning). They not only calibrated it but also (free of charge) changed or refitted all the knobs so they all worked like new. Bought that M8 used, and the original owner registered the Capture one copy for himself. Called leica and they send me a copy free of charge. Its really unfortunate people have bad experiences with he service, but its not always as bad as described above. btw, Borge, Saying a M9/ M9P doesn't provide anywhere near the possibilities u need for ur photography makes me curios what U mis in the M9 thats there in the MM. Beside the possibility of using color filters and using higher iso I can't really think of any differences. Not big enough at least not to use the M9 for those weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #8 Posted April 14, 2013 btw, Borge, Saying a M9/ M9P doesn't provide anywhere near the possibilities u need for ur photography makes me curios what U mis in the M9 thats there in the MM. Beside the possibility of using color filters and using higher iso I can't really think of any differences. Not big enough at least not to use the M9 for those weeks. What if 60-70% of my work is high-iso night time shooting? That's why I purchased the MM in the first place. Also, there is a huge difference in the post-process of the files from the cameras. Also - I don't want to be forced to learn a new camera temporarily, especially not during a trip to a place where I won't return to again for example. I know the MM inside and out, I know how to handle highlights, I know how to adjust exposure compensation for any scene, I know how to get the best results from the files... Give me an M9 and I'm clueless. It meters differently than the MM. You have to consider color conversion and loss of resolution and grain structure. You have to handle white-balance correction. High-iso performance is completely rubbish compared to the MM. I frequently shoot at 5000--6400 ISO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #9 Posted April 14, 2013 Borg, you clearly have issues that are not going to be solved by staying with Leica. You come across as arrogant and I don't blame Leica if they respond unsympathetically. Courtesy is always a prerequisite in successful business. If I were dealing with you and your attitude, I would discontinue. You really should stay with your Fuji camera and its excellent service to match your requirements. I read you as someone who wants an argument in preference to a solution. You are in the wrong camp here for that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #10 Posted April 14, 2013 What if 60-70% of my work is high-iso night time shooting? That's why I purchased the MM in the first place. Also, there is a huge difference in the post-process of the files from the cameras. Also - I don't want to be forced to learn a new camera temporarily, especially not during a trip to a place where I won't return to again for example. I know the MM inside and out, I know how to handle highlights, I know how to adjust exposure compensation for any scene, I know how to get the best results from the files... Give me an M9 and I'm clueless. It meters differently than the MM. You have to consider color conversion and loss of resolution and grain structure. You have to handle white-balance correction. High-iso performance is completely rubbish compared to the MM. I frequently shoot at 5000--6400 ISO. you come across as semi competent. If you were half a photographer you would take a camera, any camera, and make pictures. Don't blame your tools as inadequate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #11 Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Borg, you clearly have issues that are not going to be solved by staying with Leica. You come across as arrogant and I don't blame Leica if they respond unsympathetically. Courtesy is always a prerequisite in successful business. If I were dealing with you and your attitude, I would discontinue. You really should stay with your Fuji camera and its excellent service to match your requirements. I read you as someone who wants an argument in preference to a solution. You are in the wrong camp here for that. I am not arrogant. I am a demanding customer. But a good customer as well. It is not my job to please Leica, it is Leica's job to please me - the customer. Anyone thanking Leica for selling them a camera is extremely weird in the modern world. It is the strangest thing I have ever seen. The more expensive products people purchase - the better service and support they expect. This is true for computer equipment: Apple vs Acer - as an example. This is true for automobiles: Mercedes-Benz vs Kia - as an example. This is true for hifi equipment: Bose vs Logitech - as an example. It is not arrogant to demand proper service and support. I know that the attitudes towards proper service and support is different with other generations of people however, and also there is a big difference between certain countries and parts of the world. Europe, and especially northern Europe (including Germany), are usually very direct people. I say it like I mean it and I won't bother to sprinkle some sugar on top of it to make it sound nice. If I am disappointed - I say it directly, but not without reason. For US people (I know many US citizens and I have worked towards US customers for several years) this is very strange. People are (and expect) a lot more sugar coating there. Every thing should be and sound polite - no matter what. None of the approaches are right or wrong. It's just a different culture. Go to Italy and witness their politeness. Then wait for them to get pissed off about something and witness an extreme change of character. Personally I love it and I find it less rude than putting some sugar coating on top of some bullshit that everyone knows is false. I don't want an argument. I want a solution. Better yet: I demand a solution. I work towards extremely demanding customers myself - every day. And if I messed up and did a poor job - not once - but twice - and at the same time charged money for it - and used a long time on the job - I would be personally embarrassed and I would bend over and do anything to make the customer happy again. The customer would not need to demand or ask for anything, I would just do what I had to do to make things right. That is good customer service in my world. If the customer asked me politely without demanding a solution I would actually think it was very strange and weird... And I would actually think less of my customers integrity. Edited April 14, 2013 by borge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #12 Posted April 14, 2013 you come across as semi competent. If you were half a photographer you would take a camera, any camera, and make pictures. Don't blame your tools as inadequate. I am semi competent. I am not a professional photographer. I am an amateur. I am a senior engineer by profession, not a photographer. That might also be the reason that I am demanding when it comes to repairs and quality assurance. I work with high-level technical software and hardware myself - every day - towards end customers and extremely demanding corporations. So my standards are quite high in this regard. Leica's service and repair and quality assurance is one of the worst I have experienced so far. Not personally only, but also professionally - where I have a vast experience. Considering the costs of their equipment and service, and the turnaround time they really need to improve to stay competitive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #13 Posted April 14, 2013 Borg, you have set your course and I shall not endeavour to change it. We clearly have different ways of thinking and working. The only further comment i will make is that if you exchanged 'demand' for 'expect' it might elicit a little more response. As a now semi-retired professional photographer I could instruct you in a few techniques for both preparing and dealing with calamities such as you are unfortunately suffering but that would be too late at this point. My last suggestion is to call Customer Service in Solms and politely but firmly explain your issues. Demands will never produce the result you want. Trust me, I have had a lifetime of experience with such things, involving many companies. And yes, I too am trained as an engineer and worked in high profile arenas. I chose to get out because of the attitudes amongst other things. It is not necessary to work in such a way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #14 Posted April 14, 2013 Borg, you have set your course and I shall not endeavour to change it. We clearly have different ways of thinking and working. The only further comment i will make is that if you exchanged 'demand' for 'expect' it might elicit a little more response. As a now semi-retired professional photographer I could instruct you in a few techniques for both preparing and dealing with calamities such as you are unfortunately suffering but that would be too late at this point. My last suggestion is to call Customer Service in Solms and politely but firmly explain your issues. Demands will never produce the result you want. Trust me, I have had a lifetime of experience with such things, involving many companies. And yes, I too am trained as an engineer and worked in high profile arenas. I chose to get out because of the attitudes amongst other things. It is not necessary to work in such a way. Demand / Expect: both words means pretty much the same for me. A demand is an expectation that I state. Bare in mind that english isn't my first language, so I might get a few sentences and/or words wrong :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertJRB Posted April 14, 2013 Share #15 Posted April 14, 2013 What if 60-70% of my work is high-iso night time shooting? That's why I purchased the MM in the first place. Also, there is a huge difference in the post-process of the files from the cameras. Also - I don't want to be forced to learn a new camera temporarily, especially not during a trip to a place where I won't return to again for example. I know the MM inside and out, I know how to handle highlights, I know how to adjust exposure compensation for any scene, I know how to get the best results from the files... Give me an M9 and I'm clueless. It meters differently than the MM. You have to consider color conversion and loss of resolution and grain structure. You have to handle white-balance correction. High-iso performance is completely rubbish compared to the MM. I frequently shoot at 5000--6400 ISO. I understand u are getting tired of the service of leica, but I think u have to step back a bit and see if Ur demands aren't set to high. Looking at your website I see u have used the M9P, and those pictures came out nice. Sure u can't set it to 6400 iso, but how did u do so before the MM came out less than a year ago? Not so long ago I never had more than 400 ASA and still I managed to take lots of pictures I liked. Once and a while I bought 1600 ASA tri X and I felt like an owl. With digital in the beginning (canon 10D, 2003) we had a top of 1600 iso, and that looked really awfully. ISO 400 or 800 were top. Still I used that camera for a long time and it served me very well. I keep reading people telling they need a camera doing ISO 10.000 without grain, or scrollable live view with 20x zoom to set the focus properly. Still the best pictures I know are made in the time before all those things. With shitty ISO's, poor handling and almost no post processing. Sure those things are helpfull with taking pictures, and evolution is great. But it doesn't mean u need those items to be able to take pictures. I know its not what u bought the MM for, to have it in repair. But that is just how it is. A M9P is for 95% the same camera as the MM. In use and in handling. Only with high ISO's and post processing there is a difference. U have to watch the highlights with the MM. But the same is for the M9 as it can take more in the shadows as well. What I mean to tell is a loaner M9 might fit u better than u would expect and would do the job well for that time being. Not as great as the MM, but it will do the job very well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest borge Posted April 14, 2013 Share #16 Posted April 14, 2013 I understand u are getting tired of the service of leica, but I think u have to step back a bit and see if Ur demands aren't set to high. Looking at your website I see u have used the M9P, and those pictures came out nice. Sure u can't set it to 6400 iso, but how did u do so before the MM came out less than a year ago? Not so long ago I never had more than 400 ASA and still I managed to take lots of pictures I liked. Once and a while I bought 1600 ASA tri X and I felt like an owl. With digital in the beginning (canon 10D, 2003) we had a top of 1600 iso, and that looked really awfully. ISO 400 or 800 were top. Still I used that camera for a long time and it served me very well. I keep reading people telling they need a camera doing ISO 10.000 without grain, or scrollable live view with 20x zoom to set the focus properly. Still the best pictures I know are made in the time before all those things. With shitty ISO's, poor handling and almost no post processing. Sure those things are helpfull with taking pictures, and evolution is great. But it doesn't mean u need those items to be able to take pictures. I know its not what u bought the MM for, to have it in repair. But that is just how it is. A M9P is for 95% the same camera as the MM. In use and in handling. Only with high ISO's and post processing there is a difference. U have to watch the highlights with the MM. But the same is for the M9 as it can take more in the shadows as well. What I mean to tell is a loaner M9 might fit u better than u would expect and would do the job well for that time being. Not as great as the MM, but it will do the job very well. I understand what you mean but please also understand that for my use (my reasons for purchasing the MM in the first place) I would never have considered the M9/M9-P/M-E. Before the MM I used a Fujifilm X-Pro1 which is actually excellent at high ISO. From the M240 examples I have seen posted the Fuji even trumps the M240 at high ISO. The M9 can't even be compared to the Fuji at high ISO. I very frequently shot that at ISO 6400 as well, and I loved the look that I got from it. Before the X-Pro1 I had a Canon that I also frequently used at 3200-6400 ISO. The M9 is a superb camera for colors - which I am not interested in. The M9 is also extremely good at base and low ISO. But it is not a camera that fits me at all. I would rather use a MP/M6 with 3200 ASA B&W film. Yes I know that my use is quite different than many others. I prefer shooting when everyone else stopped because the awesome light disappeared. That's why I got the MM. Finally a camera that was tailored to my needs. No other camera - from any brand - is as suited to my needs as the MM. I am also partially color blind. I have a problem with red and green in certain conditions and because of that I hate processing color files. I have a perfectly calibrated and good quality monitor but that doesn't help fix the white-balance issues and color corrections when my eyes interpret red and green differently. This is also one of the major reasons why I prefer B&W and the B&W files that the MM gives me. No more headache due to color corrections and WB corrections (which also must be applied to files that are converted to B&W for the correct tonal representation). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertJRB Posted April 14, 2013 Share #17 Posted April 14, 2013 Ok, that sounds logical. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted April 14, 2013 Share #18 Posted April 14, 2013 I understand and sympathize with the OP re the delays in getting his MM repaired. Leica (or the dealer) should have acted more swiftly from the beginning. It is not good customer service to wait two weeks to do the paperwork. In today's times, these can be sent by email within hours if not minutes. Ironically, you can build great customer relations when things go wrong by dealing with them effectively and efficiently. In this case something went wrong and stayed wrong. But consider how to deal with this. There is a mechanical failure but people are involved in fixing it. Yes, I understand the "directness" point, but it is sometimes not the best way to get something done for you. More frequently, if you have a problem and you call up, you can get better results by asking for someone "to please help me out of this mess that we are in" than by berating someone on the phone (who wasn't the one who screwed up anyhow). Directness just doesn't help there. It is just blowing off steam. In any event, I would not extrapolate this situation into a general conclusion about Leica service. My experience with Leica has been different, with relatively quick turnaround and attention to the customer (not on a damage repair like this one but for a M9 sensor replacement). I wouldn't extrapolate from my experiences either by the way because I brought it to Leica NJ personally and spoke with the repair people. That isn't an option for most. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted April 14, 2013 Share #19 Posted April 14, 2013 (edited) Sent my M9 and 50 lux out for service (for recalibration after a fall from wait height accident - don't ask...). Was promised 6 week turnaround. Left my camera at the local dealer Jan 2. Still not back:mad:Missed spring break, missed cherry blossoms, couple of birthdays, pretty frustrating. Sorry just venting/disappointed. Out of curiosity what are people finding the turnaround time to be for similar work? Does Canadian work get done at Leica NJ? If so, get your V# from your dealer and then call NJ yourself to see about the delay. Talk with Sarah or Carmen. They are very responsive I have found and they can tell you if both items had to be sent to Solms which is very backed up. Borge-nothing sounds good about this situation. First, I am surprised at any charge for the MM as I just sent my MM into Leica NJ for sensor cleaning and general checkup and they turned it around in 4 days-no charge. They said warranty cameras get first priority and that's what I got without asking. Sent it 2 day back to me as my only charge was me getting it to them-insured. Edited April 14, 2013 by algrove Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealth3kpl Posted April 14, 2013 Share #20 Posted April 14, 2013 I sent my 28/2 to a well known Leica repair man just before Christmas for the end ring to be tightened. I must get around to calling him to see how he's getting on with it Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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