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HI Everyone!

I just posted a review of the Leica M Monochrom.

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LEICA M MONOCHROM – Reality Check | Leica Liker

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"But O and I are of the opinion that the Monochrom is really made for sharp lenses like the APOs."

 

With respect I disagree.

 

I do not understand how one could downplay the older lenses which give exquisite results on this camera and perhaps enhance it's 'filmic' qualities.

With the Monochrom I am just as likely to reach for the 1.0/50 Noctilux as I am the 1.4/50 Summilux ASPH.

Edited by MarkP
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HI Mark- I am not in disagreement with you - partially. You're right, the sensor makes all the Leica lenses shine and give that filmic look. I am not saying that it doesn't. Not at all. And Noctilux is an exception in that it gives a similar output to the summilux ASPH. I just think that the sensor is pushed to its greater potential when you put a super super sharp lens in front of it. How shall I put it...Imagine the Hubbel telescope with it's amazing lens that can "see" and its ability to travel (currently leaving our solar system) . But you use it just to circle earth. If I were the telescope, I want to travel out of my galaxy and see extraordinary things. Sending me around earth is not using my ability to the its greatest potential. Sure, if I circle earth, as in using the beautiful old lenses, the images of earth will no doubt be gorgeous and filmic. But... I really want to show you what I can really see and beyond! I hope you understand my POV. :)

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Nice review and its great to see the enthusiasm for this camera widening! I'm certainly thrilled with mine and its the first body to tempt me away from film for serious monochrome work.

 

The sensor can demonstrate its full resolution with super sharp lenses, for sure, but it does not take something like to 50 APO Summicron to do this. The real issue with the 50 APO Cron is its ability to demonstrate astonishing resolution from corner to corner wide open. Other lenses will demonstrate the same resolution on the Monochrom, I am darned sure, only at F4, or F5.6 (for example). Unless you really must have perfect corners at f2/2.8 then the 50 APO Summicron is really not offering much you cannot get elsewhere... My 24 3.8 Elmar, which I have had for almost 24 hours now (!) is blistering and out-resolves my other wides by a hair on this camera at 1:1, but you are not going to see it unless you are looking at a 40" print from 12 inches.

 

But this camera is about more than resolution. Its about the feel of the images, the superior tonality, the dramatic increase in file flexibility in post and I could add to the list. Amazing resolution is a nice 'extra' from my perspective. Old lenses impart no less of their look on the Monochrom than they did on film. I, for one, often chose TriX over TMY-2 or Delta 400 despite the significant loss of resolution, because I liked the results more. Yes, I deliberately threw away resolution. Old lenses will sacrifice far less on the Monochrom vs modern ones compared to shooting with grainy old TriX vs Tmax. I recently compared my 35 Summaron to my Summarit and the loss of resolution on centre was minuscule, but the smeary corners wide open were alive and well. Might be just the look I want for some things!

Edited by batmobile
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The creative process resides in the mind, not in the camera. Some may need the MM to effectively 'see' and create in b/w, but a few decades with film b/w did that for me. (And the experience wasn't any less pure just because I occasionally used color films with those same cameras.)

 

A lazy photographer is a lazy photographer, regardless of camera. Different strokes.

 

Jeff

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"But O and I are of the opinion that the Monochrom is really made for sharp lenses like the APOs."

above (quoted by MarkP)

 

Stefan Daniel said almost the opposite in that the justification for full production of the 50mm APO Summicron (as opposed to limited edition) - was the Monochrom sensor.

Edited by bybrett
(quoted by Mark P)
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above (quoted by MarkP)

 

Stefan Daniel said almost the opposite in that the justification for full production of the 50mm APO Summicron (as opposed to limited edition) - was the Monochrom sensor.

 

Brett -- is that a disagreement? Seems to me the two were made for each other: incredibly sharp lens for a sensor that can maximize its potential, and vice versa.

 

And I think the point made by Mark P is also apt: the Monochrom sensor makes the 'softer' lenses, which worked so well with film, seem more relevant again.

 

I think everyone here is right: with Monochrom, you can either take it sharp or soft. It is a little bit magical in that way.

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I like this comment:

 

O believes that black and white has an inherently more impressionistic quality whereas color requires a great deal of thought and planning in order to give off the same level of impressionism.

 

For me, all photography is an abstraction - we are framing part of what we see; we are limiting the focal point; and we are playing with the colour balance with what the sensor provides and in post processing. I don't see colour photography as any more "real" than B&W; but what I do see is considerable care needed for colour balance if you want to achieve the same strong images.

 

The strongest colour photographs, to my eye, are those where the colour is carefully controlled - Egglestone is a classic in this respect (his tricycle image, with its washed out colour and bleak Modern American Mid-West backdrop, or his red ceiling and CocaCola sign spring to mind). Strong images draw the viewers' eye to what the photographer wants portrayed, without distractions of weird bokeh, cluttered backgrounds and lack of colour balance (compositionally).

 

For colour to work for me, save for very exceptional circumstances, it almost needs to be monochromatic - blue sky and yellow sand, or those bleak snowscape images, with a cyclist crossing the image in a red jacket.

 

I love the Monochrom for taking colour out of the equation, and providing such fantastic detail and dynamic range; and it provides me with the discipline that I need. Shame it doesn't also give me time ...

 

Cheers

John

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John

 

That's a good way of looking at it and therefore everyone is right. I think Stefan was implying that the Monochrom led the way in this decision. He also said that some current lenses including the 50 APO have inherent quality in reserve which could be exploited only by future sensor development. And that they were designed with this in mind. An interesting comment.

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Nice review. Love my Monochrom and am stressing that I finally sent it to Leica to be repaired (hopefully just remapped)

 

This 'seeing' in black and white that so many people speak of, was never really a part of my process. I do understand certain images and scenes may lend themselves 'better' towards black and white but it's (to me) it's not much of the process involved one way or another.

 

I guess I react to seeing the phrase 'seeing in black and white' so much that maybe I am feeling like I am missing something!

 

Maybe Im doing it wrong! :p

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I guess I react to seeing the phrase 'seeing in black and white' so much that maybe I am feeling like I am missing something!

 

Perhaps there's just a semantics issue here; otherwise I don't know how anyone could use a MM and not try to visualize (another one of those terms) the scene in b/w tones prior to taking the pic. Maybe you could discuss your process for clarification.

 

Jeff

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Perhaps there's just a semantics issue here; otherwise I don't know how anyone could use a MM and not try to visualize (another one of those terms) the scene in b/w tones prior to taking the pic. Maybe you could discuss your process for clarification.

 

Jeff

 

Well, it's of little interest for me to visualize anything other than in capturing things that seem to line up in a way that have a chance of future interest...Of which failure rate is around 99.9% of the time.

 

For some occasions, color is important I suppose but it just doesn't usually hold my interest very long and I don't think much on it.

 

Sure, it's semantics I guess but for me personally, this idea of 'seeing' in black and white just isn't really much or even part of the equation. It's hard enough as it is to get a keeper. :p

 

For other photographers perhaps the distinction of how to 'see' in b&w might be important and yes I do 'see' in tones and try to get good exposures and am aware of light at all times..It's really first about the composition.

 

What type of photography do you do? Do you shoot in color and black and white? I'd love to see some of your work.

Edited by Avatar
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The creative process resides in the mind, not in the camera. Some may need the MM to effectively 'see' and create in b/w, but a few decades with film b/w did that for me. (And the experience wasn't any less pure just because I occasionally used color films with those same cameras.)

 

A lazy photographer is a lazy photographer, regardless of camera. Different strokes.

 

Jeff

 

precisely.

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precisely.

 

Funny that you agree with the comment that triggered this response, as the point was that, in the case of b/w, one can think and visualize the scene in b/w without having to rely on the type of camera used (the MM) to create that mindset. Exactly the opposite of how you described your process. But of course that doesn't make your process right or wrong; just very different from the context here.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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What type of photography do you do? Do you shoot in color and black and white? I'd love to see some of your work.

 

My last exhibit was at NBC Studio HQ in DC. I'm now focusing on making pics for other personal projects, both color and b/w. The color work is still evolving, having concentrated on b/w for several decades. With prints as my goal, I'm holding off on a web site for as long as I possibly can, and the last thing I want or need is sharing work on a gear forum.

 

Sorry to the OP for going OT. Back to the gear discussion.

 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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I personally am not interested in the Apo 50 -- partly the price tag which puts its out of reach of most working photographers -- but mainly because I hardly ever work with a 50. In the last few decades, there has been a tendency for the kind of photographers I know and respect to move to wider angles. My standard is the 28, and I have last version Elmarit non-asph, a really good lens that you can get for under $1500. I think about the 28 Cron, but I suspect the difference is so small that you could only tell the difference in side-by-side comparisons, which of course doesn't happen in real life. Most of the fine distinctions made on these threads are without much real meaning beyond the theoretical. I would add, too, that some of the work done with the Ap0 50 looks too sharp to my eyes. Super-etched and a little unreal.

Edited by gjames9142
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Funny that you agree with the comment that triggered this response, as the point was that, in the case of b/w, one can think and visualize the scene in b/w without having to rely on the type of camera used (the MM) to create that mindset. Exactly the opposite of how you described your process. But of course that doesn't make your process right or wrong; just very different from the context here.

 

Jeff

 

This is what I get for posting on a gear forum. :D

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I like this comment:

 

 

 

For me, all photography is an abstraction - we are framing part of what we see; we are limiting the focal point; and we are playing with the colour balance with what the sensor provides and in post processing. I don't see colour photography as any more "real" than B&W; but what I do see is considerable care needed for colour balance if you want to achieve the same strong images.

 

The strongest colour photographs, to my eye, are those where the colour is carefully controlled - Egglestone is a classic in this respect (his tricycle image, with its washed out colour and bleak Modern American Mid-West backdrop, or his red ceiling and CocaCola sign spring to mind). Strong images draw the viewers' eye to what the photographer wants portrayed, without distractions of weird bokeh, cluttered backgrounds and lack of colour balance (compositionally).

 

For colour to work for me, save for very exceptional circumstances, it almost needs to be monochromatic - blue sky and yellow sand, or those bleak snowscape images, with a cyclist crossing the image in a red jacket.

 

I love the Monochrom for taking colour out of the equation, and providing such fantastic detail and dynamic range; and it provides me with the discipline that I need. Shame it doesn't also give me time ...

 

Cheers

John

 

Agreed. If one is going to shoot in color, color has to be taken into consideration just as much as lighting, geometry, etc. Gruyaert talks about shooting good color photography being more difficult to shoot than B&W, because it adds an extra element, and I'd tend to agree.

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