stump4545 Posted April 3, 2013 Share #1 Posted April 3, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) do physical filters on the lens (yellow,red, orange) offer better results then those color filters applied in silver effects for b&w? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 3, 2013 Posted April 3, 2013 Hi stump4545, Take a look here color filters M9 b&w. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mmradman Posted April 3, 2013 Share #2 Posted April 3, 2013 On M9 no. On MM yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 3, 2013 Share #3 Posted April 3, 2013 Not my area of expertise, but my curiosity is aroused. When you say, 'on the M9, no', do you mean the filters are not effective, or just not as effective as SFX? My mind sees the filters as affecting the light entering the camera as being equal in control. The only difference being the receptors response to the filtered light. I would expect the results to be close except with SFX you can always reverse or alter the effect. With filters, not. Is that the real difference, or am I missing something (quite possible!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted April 4, 2013 Share #4 Posted April 4, 2013 You are just completely "cutting off" the light from some of the pixels on a color sensor. I don't see how that could benefit in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 4, 2013 Share #5 Posted April 4, 2013 Bernd, isn't that what happens with film that is 'filtered'? eg. yellow filter reduces or 'cuts off' blue light exposing the film, thus changing the appearance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted April 4, 2013 Share #6 Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) On black and white film there are no color layers. Think about it. I'm not being condescending because it is easy to get confused if you are thinking in terms of color film. You wouldn't shoot color film and then turn it into a black and white print. B&W film is sensitive to light of all colors (to different extent and with exceptions). All you do is control how much light of each wavelength reaches it with the color filter and then you compensate your exposure. Edited April 4, 2013 by BerndReini Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stump4545 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share #7 Posted April 4, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) so on the MM does using a physical color filter on the lens add any aesthetic advantage over achieving that look with an M9 and applying same color filter in post? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 4, 2013 Share #8 Posted April 4, 2013 (edited) Too much ground to cover here, but I agree with Puts that a lot of folks who use the M8 or M9, even for just color, could greatly benefit from a primer on the use of filters for b/w film work. One can't really understand b/w without understanding use of color. (That btw has nothing to do with using color filters on the M8 or M9! Oh my.) His discussion here touches on some of the issues, many of which, after a thorough understanding, come down to personal taste and personal workflow preferences. A search of recent threads, like this one, will also provide some user experiences with filters on the MM. Jeff Edited April 4, 2013 by Jeff S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted April 4, 2013 Share #9 Posted April 4, 2013 Yes, absolutely. On the MM each pixel simply records a luminance value, so by using a color filter you are not eliminating certain pixels from recording any luminance at all, you just give it less light from a specific wavelength. It doesn't change the fact that you are using each and every pixel to record a luminance value rather than to interpolate a color. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted April 4, 2013 Share #10 Posted April 4, 2013 the advantage with the M9 here is that you have infinitely variable post process virtual 'filter' options- whereas as with the MM you only have whatever real filter you used. Also with the M9 you don't need to buy any filters... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted April 4, 2013 Share #11 Posted April 4, 2013 I have never liked applying fake color filters in post because depending on how much you adjust, the files get really grainy because you are pushing one or more of the color channels too much. Try it out for yourself in Lightroom. When you shoot real black and white with the Monochrom and adjust for the light loss of the filter, you do not get any additional grain and you start out with an image that has the tonality you planned to begin with and you have ample latitude for correction without degrading the image. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdk Posted April 4, 2013 Share #12 Posted April 4, 2013 On black and white film there are no color layers. Think about it. I'm not being condescending because it is easy to get confused if you are thinking in terms of color film. You wouldn't shoot color film and then turn it into a black and white print. B&W film is sensitive to light of all colors (to different extent and with exceptions). All you do is control how much light of each wavelength reaches it with the color filter and then you compensate your exposure. While B&W film does not have color layers like color films do, panchromatic B&W film (or pan film) does have color sensitizing dyes to give it a broader spectral sensitivity than orthochromatic film does. Ortho film is insensitive to wavelengths in the red region of the spectrum, but pan film has some sensitivity to all visible light. The M Monochrom also has some filtering to give it simulated panchromatic film sensitivities, but unlike ortho film, an unaltered silicon sensor has too much red and IR light sensitivity. Also sometimes people did print color film onto B&W papers, and Kodak used to make Panalure paper for that exact purpose. Often this was used to send out color images B&W versions of color images for magazine or newspaper reproduction, back when color printing was relatively more expensive compared to B&W printing than color now is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted April 4, 2013 Share #13 Posted April 4, 2013 I am fully aware of this, but in order to simplify my answer I hinted at the exceptions in parentheses. For all intents of purposes, what you achieve with physical filters on black and white film or a monochromatic sensor is superior to working with color and post-production. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted April 4, 2013 Share #14 Posted April 4, 2013 do physical filters on the lens (yellow,red, orange) offer better results then those color filters applied in silver effects for b&w? Jaques has succinctly given the best answer. While using a filter on the M9 will make a difference, just as it does with B&W film, it isn't the most advantageous way to alter the effect of a filter on the image. You have one filter colour, and one filter factor (strength) with a screw on filter. And if you want more colours and strengths you have to carry one of each. But using Silver Efex Pro you have an almost infinite choice of colour and strength and you have the base RGB colour image from which to make alternative's. The second advantage of using filters in post processing is contrast. A strong red screw on filter adds contrast to a scene, and this is OK with film because it has a wide dynamic range. But on a sunny day the M9 sensor does need careful exposure to get a good histogram, and this wouldn't be helped by having a filter that is essentially fighting against you. In post processing however your perfectly exposed scene can have a strong red filter applied and you can control the contrast separately. It would need a very big experiment to determine if there was some slight advantage of achieving more subtle tones by using a screw on filter, or if it was slightly worse. But as it is so close in the final effect between using a screw on filter or doing it in post processing, on a simple like for like test, all the pro points go in favour of Silver Efex Pro for its many advantages. Steve 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted April 4, 2013 Share #15 Posted April 4, 2013 Still, manipulating the colour channels in postprocessing will increase noise and reduce DR. If you are 100% sure you are going to apply a filter effect anyway, it is better imo to use an optical one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stump4545 Posted April 4, 2013 Author Share #16 Posted April 4, 2013 thanks for the clarification. slightly off topic, but when using an optical color filter on the MM, has anyone stopped using optical color filers the due to the focus shift that Lloyd Chambers brings up which can degrade image quality? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted April 4, 2013 Share #17 Posted April 4, 2013 I am fully aware of this, but in order to simplify my answer I hinted at the exceptions in parentheses. For all intents of purposes, what you achieve with physical filters on black and white film or a monochromatic sensor is superior to working with color and post-production. Agreed on the history, but not the conclusion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted April 4, 2013 Share #18 Posted April 4, 2013 Still, manipulating the colour channels in postprocessing will increase noise and reduce DR. If you are 100% sure you are going to apply a filter effect anyway, it is better imo to use an optical one. But not by much, or much printable (since I'm compressing DR to print regardless), and certainly nothing I've seen comparing BW film with my M9 (don't have an MM). YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted April 4, 2013 Share #19 Posted April 4, 2013 Agreed on the history, but not the conclusion +1 ...although a lot comes down to workflow preferences. Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_R Posted April 4, 2013 Share #20 Posted April 4, 2013 do physical filters on the lens (yellow,red, orange) offer better results then those color filters applied in silver effects for b&w? You ask for Silver Efex and B&W. I believe, this program uses LAB internally. With CS3, I was able to open a LAB file with SE, only histogram display was disabled when working in LAB mode. With CS6, you get an error message but I think they use still LAB for B&W calculations. RGB based B&W conversions have more problems with noise, LAB allows for powerful contrast and color manipulations independently, less destructive. So, Silver Efex is unbeatable for B&W conversions. But even SE comes to a limit, sometimes. Even with 3x16bit TIFF color you can have clipping problems. As discussed here, theoretically, a well prepared (i.e. filtered) color file should allow for better tonal quality in the B&W conversion. Waiting for my MM, I played with some filters on my M9. I had a B+W 060 yellow-green filter, and shot with "daylight" color some landscapes, just for fun. I had ordered the yellow-green filter because I wanted better separation of foliage, and some effect on the sky blue. The M9-shots looked awful in Capture One, but came out nicely with Silver Efex: this was a color DNG converted directly to B&W within CaptureOne Another one, also B+W 060 and C1 With red filter, results were less impressive, I dont know why. Carsten Flickr 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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