Request for VAT/TVA number from Leica ?????

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello Ian,

 

What is the relevance of "Easy to Understand & Administer" on the one hand to "Fair" or "Proper" on the other?

 

Is this an instance of "blame the victim"?

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

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[IkarusJohn]

Michael,

 

The "fairness" you ascribe is subjective.

 

A US Republican would say tax is unfair. The thing about a universal GST is that it is hard, and pointless to avoid. Rich people, in absolute terms, spend more, where poorer people spend less. The problem, which I noted in my first post is that if the rate is too high, proportionately, poor people pay more tax as a percentage of their income.

 

As to your point about number of months, I'm not sure that really works. There is the myth about the date we stop working for the Govt (actually, we pay tax throughout the year), but with a consumption tax it's broad based, and assessed on spending rather than earning, or assets held, or inherited.

 

Anyway, this topic is well covered elsewhere.

 

Cheers

John

[wlaidlaw]

Sounds like the accountant was the problem. Whether you agree with the tax or not, VAT is IMO pretty easy to understand and administer.

 

Ian,

 

The accountant was to blame but a Customs and Excise SWAT team smashing down the doors of his premises at 6AM and pulling a 75 year old man out of bed, arresting him and yelling questions. He was so devastated by this, that he never recovered, took to his bed and died a few weeks after. Apparently they would not even allow him to take his angina medication for some time after they arrested him. It seemed that the local VAT collector had some sort of vendetta going on. The executor who was also our solicitor at the time, told us he tried to get the episode investigated but the collector was moved away and the whole thing was covered up. Customs and Excise at that time (the mid 1990's) were a law unto themselves, protected by all sorts of weird ancient laws. They did not need warrants to enter a premises forcefully and had summary powers of arrest, with little recourse.

 

Some years ago, we had a Taiwanese post graduate physiotherapy student staying with us for a few months on an exchange visit my wife had organised. We took her skiing with us to Italy. When we came back through Luton airport, she was stopped by customs. The rest of us were all shooed through. After 20 minutes she still had not appeared, so I decided to go back to see what was happening. I heard shouting coming from a side office with appalling racist language (effing chink was one of the less offensive phrases used). I stormed in found her in floods of tears being sworn at by a customs officer. I demanded that the senior officer attend.

 

It turned out that the student had purchased a P&S film camera at duty free on leaving Taiwan, to record her trip. She was being accused of smuggling it in to the UK. I explained that she was only here for three months as an official guest of the Chartered Society of Physiotherapy and would be taking the camera back to Taiwan with her. The senior officer was useless, backed up his junior, denied he had ever used racist language, even though the whole thing was clearly heard by everybody, confiscated the camera and threatened deportation of the student. We had to involve our MP and managed to get the student allowed to complete her visit but the camera disappeared and nothing came of my formal complaint of racial abuse, as it was covered up by the customs authorities and lying by various of the officer's colleagues. Not a pleasant episode!

 

Wilson

[pgk]

Whether you agree with the tax or not, VAT is IMO pretty easy to understand and administer.

As someone who is vat registered I have to disagree. In the UK there are differing vat rates, numerous rules for import/export, differing ways of applying vat to a business (global accounting at different rates), the vat margin scheme, turnover exemptions, and lots and lots and lots of varying rules, case law, etc.. Some vat is reclaimable, some is not. And as the vat registered business it is your responsibility to make sure that they are ALL adhered to and that vat is correctly accounted for. The only people who benefit are the administrators, both public and private.

 

And as a friend said to me once; "you spend ages doing tedious paperwork so that at the end you can pay the government for the privilege of doing so - its not good psychology is it?".

[IkarusJohn]

My two monthly GST return takes me half an hour, at most.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello John,

 

Any USofA Republican who would say that paying taxes is "unfair" would be making an illogical statement. For a USofA Republican.

 

Point of Information: Most USofA Republicans (And Democrats) would say that taxes ARE fair. Your's is a common misconception about USofA Politics which is prevalent in the USofA as well as elsewhere. They are both "State-ist" parties.

 

The people who you are thinking about who think taxes are "unfair" are the Right Wing Anarchists currently affiliated with but separate from the USofA Republican Party. Today they call themselves "The Libertarian Party". They, along with the Left Wing Anarchists who call themselves "Left Wing Anarchists" (No "Party" name I know of.) think all taxes are unfair. They (Left & Right Wing Anarchists) are 2 very different Political Parties who oppose each other. They none-the-less share a common philosophy of Anti-State-ism with each other.

 

State-ism as opposed to Anti-State-ism is an axis that runs at a right angle to the axis of Left to Right.

 

I, by the way, who do not speak for any of the 4 groups above, think taxes are a good & reasonable way to guarantee the equal availbility of certain types of goods & services, ie: Schools, Military, Healthcare, etc. If done in an equitable manner.

 

I also disagree in a substantive manner with parts of the positions of all of the 4 groups above. As well as some other people & some other Political Parties in other places around the World.

 

Which is permitted here because this is a Worldwide Forum in which people are allowed to express their personal perspective without being required to represent or defend some affiliation or Political Party somewhere, in some manner.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[IkarusJohn]

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You're right - I was generalising, and thinking of that appalling idiot Reagan.

[giordano]

Ages ago I owned this book by one of the civil servants in charge of designing and implementing the UK VAT system from scratch. I still recall how they started with the simple concept of a tax on value added - and how much it became complicated by civil service tradition, by political demands (e.g. "We mustn't tax food or books or children's clothes!"), and even by some genuine practicalities.

[pgk]

My two monthly GST return takes me half an hour, at most.

My vat return takes me at least 1~2 days quarterly. That's just vat and maintaining annual accounts take yet more time. It took me a long time to set up spreadsheets which now have cross checks built in - but was well worth it. Without these it would take a lot longer.

[wattsy]

As someone who is vat registered I have to disagree. In the UK there are differing vat rates, numerous rules for import/export, differing ways of applying vat to a business (global accounting at different rates), the vat margin scheme, turnover exemptions, and lots and lots and lots of varying rules, case law, etc.. Some vat is reclaimable, some is not. And as the vat registered business it is your responsibility to make sure that they are ALL adhered to and that vat is correctly accounted for. The only people who benefit are the administrators, both public and private.

 

Yes, but few businesses (of the small variety) have to deal with the more arcane aspects of VAT all at the same time. It takes me about an hour to do my quarterly VAT return - it is a piece of piss if you keep sensible accounts.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Again John,

 

As to the "mythology" of how long people work for the Government: There is no "mythology" here. If a person is paying a total of 50% of their gross income to various Governmental Authorities, ie: Property Tax, Navy, Healthcare, etc, then they are working 6 months a year for the Government to pay taxes. No rocket science necessay.

 

Also: The poorer a person is, the longer they have to work to pay for those same or reduced services. Richer people work less hours of the year to pay into taxes for programs that return them more than is returned to poorer people.

 

Exmple:

 

Richer person's house catches fire. Fire Company comes & puts it out.

 

Poorer person's house catches fire. Same kind of fire. Fire Company comes & puts out the fire in less time (smaller house).

 

Poorer person worked longer hours to get less service in return.

 

Once again: No rocket science here.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[bill]

Rich person less likely to have chip pan...

 

...really this sort of Reducio ad absurdam straw man achieves nothing.

 

Earn more. Spend more. Pay more tax.

Earn less. Spend less. Pay less tax.

 

Remember, in this country basics are not taxed. Discretionary spend is.

 

If you don't want to pay (your fair share of) tax don't buy the goods or services, or at least buy less of them.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[pgk]

Yes, but few businesses (of the small variety) have to deal with the more arcane aspects of VAT all at the same time. It takes me about an hour to do my quarterly VAT return - it is a piece of piss if you keep sensible accounts.

I have to deal with import/export/ standard and vat exempt goods and both margin scheme and fully vatable items - and I'm a one man band. Its all very time consuming, believe me.

[IkarusJohn]

50% of gross income in taxes? You should move.

 

I don't agree with your analysis, Michael; as bill says - rich people pay more tax (until they're very rich, then they pay none), and the tax is applied progressively. In my country, something like 90% of the net tax take is paid by 10% of the population. Here's how it works - people earning up to the average wage receive State benefits of some sort or other. Those earning up to the top 10 percentile, pay those benefits. The Government's net tax take is only from that top 10 percentile, once the benefits for those earning below he average wage have been recovered.

 

GST/VAT applies to consumption. The "unfair" bit about consumption taxes is that poorer people have to spend more of their income to survive (even in the UK, though less so - but there is more to the World than the UK, I guess).

[wattsy]

I have to deal with import/export/ standard and vat exempt goods and both margin scheme and fully vatable items - and I'm a one man band. Its all very time consuming, believe me.

 

I don't do margin scheme but I've exported inside and outside of EU (to VAT registered and non-VAT registered customers) both services and goods. I've not found it very difficult to understand the various rules about VAT exemption, etc. and do find my return quite easy to complete.

[wattsy]

50% of gross income in taxes?

 

That's pretty easy to do in the UK even if you are a standard rate 20% tax payer. On top of this 20% you pay the best part of 10% in national insurance (really just a fancy named further income tax - incidentally employer NI contributions are also, realistically, another tax on wages), 20% VAT on everything you buy apart from food, books and children's clothes. Gas/electricity has VAT of 5% (I think). When you buy petrol you also have the dubious delight of having to pay tax on a tax (the duty is something like 60% and VAT at 20% is added to this as well as the residual cost of the good).

[andybarton]

From the Adam Smith Institute (admitedly, a "right-wing" think-tank)

 

The Adam Smith Institute has calculated that, for 149 days of the year, every penny earned by the average UK resident will be taken by the government in tax. This year’s Tax Freedom Day falls two days later than it did in 2011 on 29 May.

 

 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Bill & John,

 

I think you are both miscalculaing something here. I am speaking of the HOURS someone works to earn the money to pay for goods & services provided (in some cases NOT provided) by various Governmental Authorities.

 

I would be surprised if anyone who is poor or works for a living was not paying some Governmental Authority or other an ammount of money reflective of 50% of the hours they work when you add in all of the diverse types & levels of Governmental Authorities people pay into. Whether they realize it or not.

 

People at higher levels of income do generally work less hours to pay their taxes than less rich people do. The numbers of, or percentages of, Pounds, Euros or Yen they actually individually do pay are irrelevant because none of those reflect hours spent.

 

Hours spent earning money to pay taxes represent opportunity lost to build a life above the guaranteed level of minimal insurance provided by various Governmental Programs.

 

Don't forget: Government is mostly a big insurance policy guaranteeing a minimal of something. Whether it is guaranteeig a certain protection from invasion, ie: Navy or guaranteeing a minimum level of education: School.

 

Whether one is called an Income Tax or the other is called a Value Added Tax is of little relevance to someone who is otherwise missing opportunity in life because they have to work for the Government in some manner so the Government can pay its bills.

 

Regardless of what you call it or how you present it: Just because you put it into a different box: That doesn't make it a different squirrel.

 

It is still opportunity & services lost by people doing the work after working more hours to pay for them.

 

Best Regards Both,

 

Michael

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[IkarusJohn]

Sure, Michael - we all have to earn the taxes we pay, and you're right that consumption taxes apply without regard to earning power.

 

But, in most civil societies, the genuinely poor get assistance (modest, since Reagan, but assistance, nonetheless), and as Bill observes, the rich spend more.

 

In my country, I sincerely doubt that anyone works 50% of their time to pay taxes. I can't speak for yours.

 

Best

John

[IkarusJohn]

That's pretty easy to do in the UK even if you are a standard rate 20% tax payer. On top of this 20% you pay the best part of 10% in national insurance (really just a fancy named further income tax - incidentally employer NI contributions are also, realistically, another tax on wages), 20% VAT on everything you buy apart from food, books and children's clothes. Gas/electricity has VAT of 5% (I think). When you buy petrol you also have the dubious delight of having to pay tax on a tax (the duty is something like 60% and VAT at 20% is added to this as well as the residual cost of the good).

 

Not sure about your maths there, Ian.

 

Take an income at that standard rate, and deduct the income tax and NHS, then you have net income. Deduct an average rent or mortgage payment (no VAT), then an average grocery bill (no VAT), and you're left with utilities (what rate?).

 

I did do the sums some years ago with our universal 15%, and could only get to 35%, and we are relatively highly taxed as a proportion of GNP. The reason is that we have relatively low rates - top marginal rate of 39% - but very few exemptions. So, limited tax avoidance, and a high tax take.

 

Andy - those dates are cute. The radio announcers love to say you've been working working for the Govt till now, but it's a stunt, you pay taxes all year, and you also enjoy Govt services all your life. You can argue about the efficiency of those services, but you do enjoy the benefit. Even the citizens of the land of the free get something for their tax dollars.