Elmar- M 2,8 50,broken/normal

[dandy]

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Elmar-M 50 2.8 collapsible

Hello,I,m a big fan of those older leica lenses.Just got the new one.Otherwise like a new one,but the front part feel little loose.The tube sits very tight when on workposition,but the frontpart (where the filter and geli is fitted )is "loose".After a few testshots,seems to be sharp.The question: is this like it should be.Never kept the lens im my hands.Hope that someone finds time for short answer.

Yours " Dandy with M 8.2" :

[Fgcm]

Sorry Dany, but I do not get is you see free play in the focusing helicoid (which is normal for Elmar M 50) or in the very front assembly (front tread ad aperture ring).

Some free play in the helicoid is normal for collapsible Elmar.

Franco

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[Ecar]

Just checked on mine and there's no looseness I can detect. But it doesn't mean it's broken - possibly needs some tightening.

[lct]

...Some free play in the helicoid is normal for collapsible Elmar...

None of my Elmars have had any play in the helocoid. Is there some reason for that? I don't see any reason for the front of the lens to have any play either so i would show the lens to a good workshop if i were the OP.

[Fgcm]

You have a very good one.

When I relizaed mine had a little of free play, I asked my dealer, who called a very well known and reliable technician, who repairs and cla Leica camera since decades.

He gave me some three or four samples of Elmar-M

All of them had the same little free play.

A very little one.

He told me it's normal and asked me if the free play affected the image quality.

My answer was no.

So the technician told me to save the cost of a new helicoid (some 400 euro in Solms, including coding).

He suggested, in case I was scared of that, just to have the lens greased with a thicker grease.

I did nothing and I enjoy my Elmar-M which is a superb lens despite the little free play.

Since this talk with the tech, every time I see an Elmar in one of the two shops where I buy my stuff (both buy and sell also used stuff) I ask to see it, just to check for the free play.

I'm curious about it.

In a few years I never found one with zero play.

Despite of this, I love my Elmar, which is always on my M6 and sometime also on my digital M (m9 since 2009 and M240 now).

We Leica owners are to sensitive to little things.........

Ciao

Franco

[lct]

I have not a very good one then but three remarquable samples with zero play that i've been using for many years and have never been CLA'd since i bought them:

- a s/h Elmar 50/2.8 # 11612 from 1962, acquired in the eighties for my M3 and M4-2;

- a s/h Elmar-M 50/2.8 # 11824 from 1994, acquired a couple of years later with an M6J;

- a new Elmar-M 50/2.8 # 11831 from 2004 to get an untabbed model that i use mainly with my M8.2.

Great lenses indeed, especially the second version since 1994.

I respect what you say of course but i don't understand the reason(s) why the helicoid of the Elmar would have more play than other lenses.

The fact that the "tube" can be collapsed should not play any role in that, or should it?

I am also curious about that as my other retractable lenses (Elmar 90/4 from 1957, Macro-Elmar 90/4 from 2005) have not the least play either.

[Fgcm]

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Later this morning, I post a photo of the flange for you. The problem is related to the size of the brass rim at the base of the helicoid. After the tech showed me the rim, I realized the reason of the problem. Which is also the reason why the lens is so easy to focus. And I stopped worrying about.

[lct]

You are referring to the rotating mount of the first Elmar 50/2.8 version (# 11612, 1957-1974) i guess.

The Elmar-M version (# 11823/11824/11831, 1994-2007) has a rectilinear focusing mount which is similar to that of non retractable lenses and has no more reasons to develop some play in the helicoid IMHO.

Unless one consider that collapsing and expanding the lens may cause other effect than wobbling of the tube after several years of use...

Did you read any literature about such a play? Just curious.

[dandy]

Thank you everyone for taking my problem seriously,great answers .I'm truly impressed;)

It goes this way: i fix the lens to the camera body,turn the tube clockwise(to workposition),now everything from focusing helicoid to tube is rocksolid,only the block where aperturering is assembled feels loose.I cant tell if the frontlens swings together with the block,maybe it is fitted on the tube.?

I'm "little" paranoid with these things,but those things are'nt cheap.::rolleyes:

Must check the first pictures on my pad,then perhaps to the technician.

Thanks once again

[dandy]

It is the last version.(silver)

No, i havent read any that kind of literarure conserning this lens.

[250swb]

It is perfectly normal to have some slight wobble of the aperture ring of the Elmar M. It won't affect the image.

 

Steve

[lct]

...only the block where aperture ring is assembled feels loose. I cant tell if the front lens swings together with the block...

Sorry to confuse the matter with play in the focusing mount. Your problem has nothing to do with that. If the front of the lens (not only the aperture ring) is loose i would show the lens to a Leica workshop and refrain from using it for now.

[Fgcm]

Hi Ict,

I try to summarize what I was told about and what i saw with my eyes.

The problem is not related to the collapsing of the lens barrel.

 

Look at the picture below.

It's an Elmar-M (last version).

The helicoid base rotates against the flange. Se arrows.

I was told that after several years of use the thin rim can wear (as in my case happened).

 

The tech suggested three possible solutions:

1. to do nothing, as I did, because the problem is not material.

2. to use a thicker grease, which would almost eliminate the freeplay.

3. to have the helicoid assembly changed at Solms. Cost about 400 Euro. Another customer of his asked for it a few weeks before, this is why he knew the cost.

 

The tech told me not to care about and to enjoy the lens for next ten years before asking for a CLA.

 

Back to the shop, I and the owner of the shop checked three or four Elmar-M and all of them had a vary little free play (even if a little less than mine).

We are friends, so we checked just for curiosity.

I had the opportunity to do the same in another shop were I buy my stuff.

Same result with a couple of Elmar-M.

To be exact: the play is proportional to the looseness of the focus ring.

 

Since than I told myself: who cares? The lens performs well and a "new" one would not be much better, so I stopped caring about.

 

A question: what about the focusing of your Elmar-M? Is it very loose as mine is or is stiffer, like a Summicron?

Mine is looser than Summarit's which is one of the reasons why I like it so much

I'm just curious.

 

Even if it's not normal as I thought (after comparing to other Elmars!) we can conclude that a little free play is not material for a 2.8 lens.

Interesting conclusion indeed.

 

Franco

 

 

PS. Sorry for the sloppy picture of the flange, but I used an hand held pocket camera

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[lct]

...The helicoid base rotates against the flange. Se arrows. I was told that after several years of use the thin rim can wear (as in my case happened)...

Hi Franco. It's not your technician who told you this story hopefully. This has nothing to do with wear. Some Leica flanges have a recessed part onto which the lens barrel rotates when focusing. It is the case for the Elmar-M 50/2.8 but also for the Summilux-M 50/1.4 asph (left on the pic below). If you ask me what i think i will tell you that this has nothing to do with play in the helicoid either. If you have some play in your focusing ring it is not normal per se but you can live with it as long as it does not bother you too much.

...A question: what about the focusing of your Elmar-M? Is it very loose as mine is or is stiffer, like a Summicron? Mine is looser than Summarit's which is one of the reasons why I like it so much I'm just curious. ...

My two samples of the Elmar-M are perfect for me i.e. a bit more damped than the Summarit 35/2.5 and very close to the Summicron 50/2 pre-apo.

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[Fgcm]

Hi Ict,

he told me about (and showed) the recessed part as you are doing.

He added that the recessed part and/or the base of the barrel was a little worn.

This is coherent: I feel a free play moving the focus ring and keeping the bayonet with the other hand. It wobbles just a little.

On the other hand, the barrel does't wobble when I move it keeping the focusing ring.

 

What is strange is the fact that not mine only, but a number of samples of the same lens had a similar problem (I wrote you about the shop). Mine was the worst, but neither of the other samples was perfect. Mine was also the less damped of all.

As I told you, I never had any problem with the lens, nor on M6, neither on M9. This is why I was never bothered about it.

 

I see that you like 50mm lenses as I do.

Which one do you like most?

 

Franco

[lct]

Tough question indeed. So many great Leica lenses. If i had to keep one i would hesitate between the Elmar-M or the Summilux pre-asph depending upon weather forecasts on the desert island.

[Fgcm]

I never had the chance to try a Summilux pre asph.

You are tempting me to to borrow one for a couple of rolls

For Elmar-M I agree with you. I always have it on my M6.

On M9 I used a lot also Summarit

 

Now I have to quit.

I'm driving to a place on the Alps for Easter.

By the way, have a nice Easter and thanks for the interesting chat.

I'll let you know if I find a Summilux pre asph to borrow

Ciao

Franco

[IWC Doppel]

Hi I had some play, less than others I tried, I then sent to Malcolm Taylor who adjusted and CLA'd. He uses slightly different grease and says this helps. Mine is now tight with no play at all and super smooth to operate

 

He has been looking into a mod for this lens, but in the meantime I am very happy with my copy and used it yesterday

Edited April 1, 2013 by IWC Doppel

[thighslapper]

I have 3 of these lenses (don't ask how or why.....)

 

2 have quite a bit of play in the tube part when unlocked, one is a tight fit

 

2 have slight play in the aperture end element where it attaches to the tube.

 

2 have slight play in the focussing element where it fixes onto the mounting flange.

 

1 has a very easily moved aperture ring with virtually no 'stops'

 

1 appears mint and has hardly been used

 

1 has cosmetic marks and is actually the oldest but has the least play of the 3

 

1 looks as if it has had minimal use

 

None is absolutely perfect..... but .....

 

All work perfectly and take identical well focussed images.

 

I think these variations are part of the nature of the lens where the bits at either end are fixed to a metal tube that is then designed to retract. Even when new I bet the elements are not completely rigid in their attachments.

 

All my recent M9/M240 comparisons have been done with a pair of these fine little lenses.

 

I wouldn't worry if it works ok

Edited April 4, 2013 by thighslapper

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[Fgcm]

After reading this tread, I decided to disassemble the lens to better understand the problem.

 

I have both skills and tools. If you don't, refrain from messing up a fine lens.

 

To disassemble the lens, first unscrew the black part on the back of the barrel, than the two little screws on the sides of the chromed barrel.

Now put the lens assembly aside with screws, barrel and the shims (do not bend the shims).

 

Unscrew the tho screws on the front side of the focusing assembly and the chromed flange on the back.

Now unscrew the brass focusing helicoid.

 

Clean up everything (do not use solvents!!!!).

 

If you work carefully, you do not need to unscrew the front flange. if you do, when you reassemble it, use some locktite tread lock to lock the six screws.

 

After cleaning, use teflon grease (a good one, not the first you find in the tool box). Get a thin one.

 

Now assemble everything wiping away the excess of grease.

 

Time required: half an hour (if you know what you are doing)

 

Now the lens has no freeplay. It's like new and focus perfectly as it did before.

 

My assessment: tolerance are very tight. This is a masterpiece of mechanical perfection.

 

The problem was mainly due to the decomposition of the grease used during the assembly of the lens. After too many years, the grease lost it's adhesive properties.

 

Now the lens looks like new, but it works as well as before.

I can say that the problem was not affecting optical performance.

 

This is the evidence that sometimes we think to much and we care of our stuff more than we should.

 

Enjoy your Elmar-Ms as they are and do not care of little imperfections.

 

Franco