UliWer Posted March 5, 2013 Share #41 Posted March 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...btw: you mean "manual coding" in the sense of "setting the lens through the menu", I suppose... bit-coding can't work if the adapter doesn't cover the 6 bit sensor...... If I use a LTM 5cm Elmar on the M9, the adapter doesn't cover the 6bit-sensor. When I set the manual detection of a 50mm lens, the camera shows me "50mm" and I get the dates of the lens from the list in the EXIF. My theory was that you could fool the 6bit sensor of the M 240 by choosing a lens from the list, so that live view might work as well. It may be not so, if the 6bit sensor of the M 240 always needs to recognize that there is at least anything. I read anywhere - don't remember the thread exactly, that they changed the lens detection with the M: Even if it is switched off, the 6-bit-sensor detects a coded lens. This could be a good feature if you swap from an uncoded lens to a coded one: the proper code overrides your former setting (or your former switching off the lens detection), so you avoid weird effects. Only if a coding choosen from the list has priority over the automatic detection by the 6bit sensor, you could fool the system and use LTM-lenses with usual adapters which leave the sensor uncovered - and then you should be able to use Live View with those adpaters as well: The camera "thinks": I have got a lens because it reads the manual setting from the list, and won't disable Live View, even if the 6bit-sensor is not covered. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2013 Posted March 5, 2013 Hi UliWer, Take a look here M 240 arrives. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
luigi bertolotti Posted March 6, 2013 Share #42 Posted March 6, 2013 Yes... there seems to be something different in the "management" of the 6 bit from M9 to M240... your hipotesis that it is, at software level, an issue of priority (for instance "FIRST the manual setting---> so ok to Liveview ---> don't care of 6 bit reading) is very reasonable and could be probably revisioned by Leica : I think , by the other side, that maybe they would give priority to the concept of "DON'T allow Live View if NO lens is on" (maybe for some possible harm to the sensor ?) and of course the easiest way to verify if there is NO lens is to check through the 6 bit sensor.... even if it is not set to its proper function of lens recognition... Well... as any tech question... it becomes tricky when one goes a bit in depth... surely a topic which is worth to follow as M240s start to arrive in the hands of users... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 6, 2013 Share #43 Posted March 6, 2013 The camera can detect when any lens is mounted, coded or not. The shutter closes for live view when the lens is slightly withdrawn from the lens mount. How it detects that, I do not know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted March 6, 2013 Share #44 Posted March 6, 2013 Luigi, I do not read all your posts in here but if I resume the questions I can give you an answer about S to M adapters with 6 bit coding, I got some and they work as the one you got for the M My friend Leica dealer have got 2 M240 one black and one chrome... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 6, 2013 Share #45 Posted March 6, 2013 Luigi,I do not read all your posts in here ... That's never a good idea... We were just dealing with the very serious case that the full funcionality of a Leica camera with an LTM 5cm Elmar was only ensured if you use a - horribile dictu - third party adapter:eek: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 6, 2013 Share #46 Posted March 6, 2013 The camera can detect when any lens is mounted, coded or not. The shutter closes for live view when the lens is slightly withdrawn from the lens mount. How it detects that, I do not know. Thanks... that's interesting... by logic, the only "detector" can be the 6 bit sensor that says "all bits read light" (unless there is some misterious microswitch inside the mount, which seems uneven) : do you think it can be like this ? (even related with my speculation that it is significant that no code "all white" does exist ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted March 6, 2013 Share #47 Posted March 6, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Houston Camera Exchange, our only Leica dealer here, said their first four are going to pre-paid customers, but they have no idea when they'll arrive. (And that just means four people pre-paid, not that they're expecting four at once.) They didn't get a demo model for the store either. I never use them because they NEVER have anything in stock, and I have to pay an additional 8.5% sales tax versus no tax when buying online from an out-of-state dealer. Kind of sad because normally I'm a "shop local" kind of guy, but in this case I'm not a "wait longer to pay an extra $600" type guy. Hmmm...same here in Austin. We have a nice dealer and they carry a small stock of Leica gear but with the 8.25% tax rate, I tend to shop online. I mainly use a dealer in NY and I can usuall get him to ship for free since I have used him many times. He will actually ship me the item and I send him a check theough online banking. That's how I bought my MM. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted March 7, 2013 Share #48 Posted March 7, 2013 The shutter closes for live-view when the lens is slightly withdrawn from the lens mount. How it detects that, I do not know. Thanks ... that's interesting ... by logic, the only "detector" can be the 6-bit sensor that says "all bits read light" ... By sheer logic, it could be the image sensor as well. But I'd assume it's the 6-bit sensor, too. ... related with my speculation that it is significant that no code "all white" does exist? Such a code does exist—it says, uncoded lens. When the lens is firmly attached to the bayonet then the 6-bit sensor unit receives no light at all. In order to read out the black and white patches, it must send out its own light and see how much of it gets reflected back from each patch. As soon as the light receptors see any light that wasn't sent out by the unit, or is much brighter than what the unit would send by itself, the camera knows there is no lens atttached. Try removing a lens in pitch-black darkness! Does the camera, in live-view mode, still recognise when the lens gets removed? If so then the 6-bit sensor unit also notes when the light sent out by itself doesn't get reflected at all. Note that black patches do reflect some light (albeit much less than the whites do), so there's a noticable difference between "black patch" and "no patch". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted March 7, 2013 Share #49 Posted March 7, 2013 By sheer logic, it could be the image sensor as well. But I'd assume it's the 6-bit sensor, too. Wait—it also could be the light-metering cell in the camera's bottom. It's easy to check whether it's the 6-bit sensor which senses the lens removal, provided you have a non-M lens and an adapter. Attach the lens with adapter and engage live-view. Then remove the lens from the adapter so the adapter remains on the camera. If the shutter closes and live-view disengages automatically then it's either the image sensor or the light-metering cell, or a combination of both. If live-view remains active then it's the 6-bit-sensor. Don't try this in bright sunshine but in some subdued light. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 7, 2013 Share #50 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Not sure it can be an optical trigger. I think it's down the frame line selection lever in the lens throat. Look at the useful thread comparing the M and the M9 and there appears to be two levers, maybe one of these moves for any lens type mounted. It seems to depress into the rear of the camera, so that moving the lens forward will release it. But I may be wrong. http://www.farines-photo.com/wp/?p=563# Certainly, if you have no lens mounted and try to start LV, you get the message "no lens connected". Another strange use of language, maybe one of the beta testers might have suggested "no lens mounted" or "no lens attached" would have been better. Also, my Novoflex Nikon adapter is all black so the lens detector will be seeing all black; it works fine in LV. Putting just the adapter on the camera without a lens of course fools it into thinking there is one there. I think it is a mechanical switch somewhere. Edited March 7, 2013 by marknorton 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted March 7, 2013 Share #51 Posted March 7, 2013 Not sure it can be an optical trigger. I think it's down the frame line selection lever in the lens throat. Luigi said he thinks it's unlikely that it's a micro-switch, and I tend to agree ... but heck, you're right! There is another micro-switch for sensing the presence of a lens. Duh ... And this explains a strange incident I had with my borrowed M. After having changed lenses, the camera's live-view suddenly was dead. I checked the lens—the front cap was off. I switched live-view off and on again—still a pitch-black display, both on the camera's rear as well as in the accessory EVF. Eventually I fired the shutter—the camera recorded an all-black image, and after that, everything was fine again. Now it dawns on me what had happened. I changed between two non-M lenses while the adapter remained on the camera. So for a moment, the image sensor saw an awful lot of light (even though I was indoors) while the micro-switch still said, "lens attached." I guess this confused the heck out of the electronics, and in order to protect the sensor from massive light overload, it shut down the live-view feature altogether. Firing the shutter reset the whole mess. So I guess it is not a good idea to change non-M lenses in bright light when an adapter is on the camera and live-view is engaged. Better disengage live-view (or switch off the camera) before changing non-M lenses. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2013 Share #52 Posted March 7, 2013 It is not the flange causing the "No Lens Connected" message. I just tried with an Elephoto M42 to M adapter, which has a solid flange. I think Mark is correct, it is the frame-lines cam. This is a disappointment, as I was looking forward to using my M42 fish-eye and other M42 lenses on the new M and actually seeing what I was going to get before I took it. The camera still works but just no live view. This is something we need to be aware of for all third party lens adapters. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 7, 2013 Share #53 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) It is not the flange causing the "No Lens Connected" message. I just tried with an Elephoto M42 to M adapter, which has a solid flange. I think Mark is correct, it is the frame-lines cam. .. Following the discussion I think you need the sensor on the flange and the frame-lines cam as well. The discussion started with the question why Live View didn't work when an LTM-Lens was on the camera with an ordinary LTM adapter. In this case the frame lines are triggered as with every M-lens - but the 6-bit-sensor is not covered. When someone tried another adapter for LTM-lenses, which covers the 6-bit sensor, Live View worked. So it looks as if you got the message "no lens connected" and can't use LiveView when you use adapters which either don't cover the 6bit-sensor on the flange or don't trigger the frame lines. There is still my hypothesis from above: is it possible, that you substitute the 6-bit sensor's function by manually setting the code of a certain lens from the list and trigger the frames like usual? Do you get the message "no lens connected" and can't use Live View if you use an LTM Lens with traditional adapter, and choose a proper code from the list in the menu? Did someone try this? Edited March 7, 2013 by UliWer Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2013 Share #54 Posted March 7, 2013 Following the discussion I think you need the sensor on the flange and the frame-lines cam as well. The discussion started with the question why Live View didn't work when an LTM-Lens was on the camera with an ordinary LTM adapter. In this case the frame lines are triggered as with every M-lens - but the 6-bit-sensor is not covered. When someone tried another adapter for LTM-lenses, which covers the 6-bit sensor, Live View worked. So it looks as if you got the message "no lens connected" and can't use LiveView when you use adapters which either don't cover the 6bit-sensor on the flange or don't trigger the frame lines. There is still my hypothesis from above: is it possible, that you substitute the 6-bit sensor's function by manually setting the code of a certain lens from the list and trigger the frames like usual? Do you get the message "no lens connected" and can't use Live View if you use an LTM Lens with traditional adapter, and choose a proper code from the list in the menu? Did someone try this? Not easy on my Elephoto M42 to Leica M adapter because it is black and so therefore difficult to hand code unless I get the thinners out and remove some of the paint. It is from before the days of coding, so no pits milled into it. I think the way to go for me is to get an M42 to LTM adapter and then a coded 28/90 LTM to LM ring or alternatively send the Elephoto to Malcolm Taylor to see what he can do. The annoying thing with the Elephoto, is that you can see where they have ground off the frame lines tab. If only they had left it Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 7, 2013 Share #55 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Still... something isn't yet clear to me : - Mark's link shows clearly that there is a 2nd microswitch inside the throat. - By logic, its function is sensing that a lens is ON... when you remove the lens, after a short rotation (while bayonets are still a bit engaged) , it triggers a signal that inhibits LV (or shuts it if it is set at the moment) - BUT this ought to happen with ANY male bayonet mount... regardless of the framelines it mechanically can or cannot activate (or am I wrong ?). - BUT seems that Wilson's adapter, which surely has a std. male BM, does inhibit LV. ... let's say... with LTM lenses, is just a matter of having one or more well done "modern" adapters with pits... not a problem, they abound, they are cheap. BUT for adapters with a male BM, for other kind of lenses... (can be that a slightly different BM is needed ? I am worried for my Contarex adapter... the Distagon 18 doesn't pose strong focusing issues... but I'd REALLY like to mount my splendid Olympia Sonnar 250... LV being the only way...) Btw, Wilson, I think this issue can involve also the "tube fo Viso's length" you have been made... Edited March 7, 2013 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted March 7, 2013 Share #56 Posted March 7, 2013 ... its function is sensing that a lens is ON. When you remove the lens, after a short rotation (while bayonets are still a bit engaged) , it triggers a signal that inhibits LV (or shuts it if it is set at the moment). BUT this ought to happen with ANY male bayonet mount ... regardless of the framelines it mechanically can or cannot activate (or am I wrong?). You're right. BUT seems that Wilson's adapter, which surely has a std. male BM, does inhibit LV. Wilson wlaidlaw just said his M42-to-M adapter has been tampered with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted March 7, 2013 Share #57 Posted March 7, 2013 Not easy on my Elephoto M42 to Leica M adapter because it is black and so therefore difficult to hand code unless I get the thinners out and remove some of the paint. It is from before the days of coding, so no pits milled into it. I think the way to go for me is to get an M42 to LTM adapter and then a coded 28/90 LTM to LM ring or alternatively send the Elephoto to Malcolm Taylor to see what he can do. The annoying thing with the Elephoto, is that you can see where they have ground off the frame lines tab. If only they had left it Wilson I am sorry for my inability to express what I mean. I did not mean coding a six bit code on the adapter. There is an option called "manual" in the menue for lens detection. From there you can choose a lens. I think it's sufficient to choose a lens with the same focal length. Now if you use any ordinary (Leica) adapter for LTM - lenses. The normal adapters for 35 and 50mm lenses don't cover the sensor for reading the 6bit code on the flange of the bayonet (besides some very old ones which are very rare as well). From what we know yet, Live View should not work, because the 6bit sensor of the flange is not covered. Though if you have chosen the detection for a certain lens from the menue, the sensor on the flange should not have any function, because there is nothing to read as the camera got the code from the menue. The second device in the camera which detects if there is a lens should work as normal, because there is a lens. Now: what happens? Will Live View work or not? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted March 7, 2013 Share #58 Posted March 7, 2013 I can't see how the lens sensor can be used as a reliable detector of a lens present. If it's matt black and uncoded (which my Novoflex Nikon adapter is), it's still possible to run Live View. I'm convinced it's using an additional flange sensor to detect "any lens". Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 7, 2013 Share #59 Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) I can't see how the lens sensor can be used as a reliable detector of a lens present. If it's matt black and uncoded (which my Novoflex Nikon adapter is), it's still possible to run Live View. I'm convinced it's using an additional flange sensor to detect "any lens". Hum... that's good... but: does your Novoflex adapter trigger some frame into the VF ? In case, which one ? Yor situation looks opposite of Wilson's who too has a black adapter (but, he says, with framelines tab eliminated...) Edited March 7, 2013 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted March 7, 2013 Share #60 Posted March 7, 2013 Still... something isn't yet clear to me : - Mark's link shows clearly that there is a 2nd microswitch inside the throat. - By logic, its function is sensing that a lens is ON... when you remove the lens, after a short rotation (while bayonets are still a bit engaged) , it triggers a signal that inhibits LV (or shuts it if it is set at the moment) - BUT this ought to happen with ANY male bayonet mount... regardless of the framelines it mechanically can or cannot activate (or am I wrong ?). - BUT seems that Wilson's adapter, which surely has a std. male BM, does inhibit LV. ... let's say... with LTM lenses, is just a matter of having one or more well done "modern" adapters with pits... not a problem, they abound, they are cheap. BUT for adapters with a male BM, for other kind of lenses... (can be that a slightly different BM is needed ? I am worried for my Contarex adapter... the Distagon 18 doesn't pose strong focusing issues... but I'd REALLY like to mount my splendid Olympia Sonnar 250... LV being the only way...) Btw, Wilson, I think this issue can involve also the "tube fo Viso's length" you have been made... Luigi, No the Visoflex adapter is just fine. It brings up the 28/90 frame lines and brings up the R lens selection menu. The only problem I am having is that the male bayonet on my Televit is incredibly tight on the Visoflex adapter to the point it will not lock. It is the opposite of the male adapter, which is slightly too loose on most cameras but OK on the new M, where the female bayonet is very very tight on all lenses. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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