enboe Posted February 23, 2013 Share #1 Posted February 23, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) It's very good to see a number of well-done, hands-on reviews of the new camera. I have picked up on two issues that I hope are resolved before release. 1) Banding noise - I remember this on the original Nikon D1. I had to buy special software to fix it. Eventually, Nikon replaced the sensor & readout board as a clock circuit was out of specification. Maybe that tidbit will be useful to the team working the development. 2) Slow startup - for someone who wants to grab a shot, waiting for startup is not a good thing. This is definitely addressable in software as they figure out their file structure issues on the card, and maybe even allow for capture to memory before the card is ready for transfer. Of course if the big, new battery will allow for walk-around all day without turning the camera off (LCD off, of course), then maybe it's not an issue, just a change to my shooting style. Any other issues people wish to see worked before release? Eric 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 23, 2013 Posted February 23, 2013 Hi enboe, Take a look here M240 issues from reviews (patience is a virtue). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted February 23, 2013 Share #2 Posted February 23, 2013 [...]2) Slow startup - for someone who wants to grab a shot, waiting for startup is not a good thing. This is definitely addressable in software as they figure out their file structure issues on the card, File structure issues? What file structure issues? and maybe even allow for capture to memory before the card is ready for transfer. That is the way the M9, for example, works so why should the M240 be different, except perhaps better, faster, with larger buffer. (Buffer is what you mean by memory.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enboe Posted February 23, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted February 23, 2013 Pico, I'm definitely armchair engineering here, but I have a little experience in computer architecture. When a system has a block of memory, such as a flash card, among the many decisions that go into using the resource is how it is partitioned, and how it is accessed. Think of it like a journal book. Do you always start with page 1 and flip until you find a blank page, or do you put a note on page one with the next empty page listed on it? Also, do you count how many pages are in the book before you start writing in it, or do you exhaustively count (test) every page (memory block) before you start using it. These are standard computer architecture design issues, and I have confidence they will be sorted out well. Now, for that banding noise, that one may be a little more interesting. Leica has proven they will stay on a problem until it is resolved, for example, IR on M8 and SD card issues on M9, so I am still very happy to be on the waiting list at my local dealer. Thanks for the dialog. Eric 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 23, 2013 Share #4 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Umm... but the slow startup is due to firmware, which is not on the SD card. Edited February 23, 2013 by jaapv 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted February 23, 2013 Share #5 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Yes... the slow startup is a noticeable element (the banding issue could indeed been solved by software tunning) : as for MY needs, it is not so important, but surely is a detail that they ought to adress... as a person in the software business, I know very well HOW MUCH is important to achieve a correct setup when you have to initialize a certain system... and I can confirm that the golden rule is "better is a bit slow... but ROBUST when you release it... there is time to optimize it after..." Frankly speaking, the last reviews (Jono, Reid, Ming) have provied a good kick to my historical goal "decide in March"... I have a question on a matter that is not 100% clear, to me : the EVF 30 fps rate is generally valued as a slight limitation in dynamic situations... I haven't well understood if this applies also to the Live View through LCD.... is it like this ? (not that i consider this as SO important... but in general,as a owner of several long lenses, the EVF/LV is a feature that is a driver for my decision...) Edited February 23, 2013 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscheffler Posted February 23, 2013 Share #6 Posted February 23, 2013 Slow start-up is really only a problem once - at start up. The workaround to avoid this problem while the camera is in use, as indicated by Jono, is to disable or set a very long delay for the camera to enter sleep. This is the same solution for the M9, but the M's advantage is the much longer lasting battery. If your habit is to frequently turn off the camera, then it's a matter of changing your habit. IMO the banding exhibited in some of the preproduction images is more troubling, because it's somewhat random (difficult to know if it was camera, firmware or setting dependent), at least from an outside perspective. This single issue has me on the fence. The way I work with M9 files often means opening shadow values a fair degree to reveal subject information and I'm concerned the pattern banding seen in some of the M files, when pushed, will be a problem here. That said, I've endured a couple years of random M9 banding, but it would be nice not to have to worry about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 23, 2013 Share #7 Posted February 23, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Eric: Review SD card architecture. It is very well defined. Start-up does not fret the media, nor does writing or reading it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 23, 2013 Share #8 Posted February 23, 2013 the EVF 30 fps rate is generally valued as a slight limitation in dynamic situations... I haven't well understood if this applies also to the Live View through LCD.... is it like this ? Live view is 30 fps, regardless of whether it is shown on the display or the EVF. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smant Posted February 23, 2013 Share #9 Posted February 23, 2013 Well, this is my first post here on this forum. But I've been reading it for quite awhile. Having seen all the samples presented so far, I presume that I not only keep my m9, but I'll be much more carefull about it to ensure it stays alive till the next generation of truly leica come to life. There is no difference from canon/Nikon in the samples online. You can surely make the same pictures with a number of cameras. IMHO. This is terrible. Keep the m9 forever! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted February 23, 2013 Share #10 Posted February 23, 2013 Umm... but the slow startup is due to firmware, which is not on the SD card. Yeah, but then the firmware probably isn’t just busily twiddling its thumbs on start-up. When a camera starts up, it has to perform a couple of initialisations, some of which concern the memory card. It goes like this: Is there a card in the slot? Is it properly formatted with a compatible file system? Is the standard DCF folder structure present or does it have to be created? Which is the highest image file number on the card? Is there a subfolder to store the image files (i.e. there may only be subfolders created by other cameras or there may be a Leica subfolder that is full, so a new subfolder needs to be created)? How much free space is left on the card? And so on. The time this takes is part of the total start-up time and both the speed of the card and the number of files are contributing factors. On the other hand the camera could speed this up by, for example, recognising that the card hasn’t changed (and hasn’t been written to) since the camera was last turned off. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 23, 2013 Share #11 Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) It is worth mentioning that the checks MJH mentioned are executed in 1/1000th of the time required of a person to read them. I do not think the number of files on the card effect start-up time. The card knows the number and the next available file location. Edited February 23, 2013 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted February 23, 2013 Share #12 Posted February 23, 2013 Well, this is my first post here on this forum.But I've been reading it for quite awhile. Having seen all the samples presented so far, I presume that I not only keep my m9, but I'll be much more carefull about it to ensure it stays alive till the next generation of truly leica come to life. There is no difference from canon/Nikon in the samples online. You can surely make the same pictures with a number of cameras. IMHO. This is terrible. Keep the m9 forever! It will be interesting to see just how the Leica modded CMOS images compare to CCD and the Japanese CMOS alternatives. I sincerely hope the differentiation isn't lost but the recipe has never looked quite right if I'm honest. I still want Leica to differentiate not follow and CMOS live view etc is not a recipe that excites me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 24, 2013 Share #13 Posted February 24, 2013 Well, this is my first post here on this forum.But I've been reading it for quite awhile. Having seen all the samples presented so far, I presume that I not only keep my m9, but I'll be much more carefull about it to ensure it stays alive till the next generation of truly leica come to life. There is no difference from canon/Nikon in the samples online. You can surely make the same pictures with a number of cameras. IMHO. This is terrible. Keep the m9 forever! Wrong way to judge IMO. Bet if I showed you prints using a bunch of different cameras (and lenses), you'd have no clue what camera was used, not even an M8 versus M9, let alone the myriad other possibilities. There are too many variables in the chain from subject to camera to print (and display). Not only that, but the final firmware and the profiles for the M aren't even complete. I'll reserve judgment until I test by making actual prints using my pics. Oh, and welcome. Jeff 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted February 24, 2013 Share #14 Posted February 24, 2013 Slow start up time (seconds!) is a huge issue, and having to charge the battery more often is not a solution (esp as the whole idea was to have a bigger battery for that very reason). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted February 24, 2013 Share #15 Posted February 24, 2013 Good thinking Eric. The banding is one thing, the slow startup seems to be related to reading cards ( did Ming point it out?). Anyway I'm sure it'll be sorted out in the final firmware. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rirakuma Posted February 24, 2013 Share #16 Posted February 24, 2013 Slow start up time (seconds!) is a huge issue, and having to charge the battery more often is not a solution (esp as the whole idea was to have a bigger battery for that very reason). I strongly believe the start up time will be fixed by the time it starts shipping. A little off topic but I just looked through your website and I really admire your work Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
smant Posted February 24, 2013 Share #17 Posted February 24, 2013 To Jeff S Well, partly I agree with your approach. Certainly the final product is the print and it does not matter with which camera it was taken. Nevertheless when we start discussing cameras I presume everything comes down to the question if this discussed one has got a character or not. For me it is quite obvious. Without any pp the original file from m9 has got certain traits that differentiate this camera from the rest. Ok this is a bit subjective but I'm expressing my private opinion. Cameras with character appear from time to time but they are quite rare and valuable. M9 is among them. At least for me. And sorry but I don't see character in m240 files. I was waiting for such camera in fact because my eyesight deteriorates and a live view becomes almost a must for me. Hope I'm mistaken... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 24, 2013 Share #18 Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) We can only judge a thing like that when the camera comes out and images from more photographers become available, profiles for raw conversion are provided and users start to get to grips with post processing. It was the same with the M9. Preproduction and marketing shots were varying in quality to put it mildly and the colour was all over the place - people seem to have forgotten the initial struggle with red and green. Actually the M shots look a lot better than the M9 ones did at this stage. Edited February 24, 2013 by jaapv typo 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diogenis Posted February 24, 2013 Share #19 Posted February 24, 2013 Since when did startup times mattered for M8/9? If I remember correctly, initial procedures can also be run in parallel with the core camera functions: one can still take a photo even if the small red led still lights Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest malland Posted February 24, 2013 Share #20 Posted February 24, 2013 We can only judge a thing like that when the camera comes out and images from more photographers become available, profiles for raw conversion are provided and users start to get to grips with post processing. It was the same with the M9. Preproduction and marketing shots were varying in quality to put it mildly and the colour was all over he place - people seem to have forgotten the initial struggle with red and green. Actually the M shots look a lot better than the M9 ones did at this stage.Absolutely, all this reading of tea leaves on the basis of firmware that is not yet final is only of moderate interested: the most it does for me — apart from being a source of entertainment — is to lay out the issues to be considered and judged when the M240 ships, at which point the revised (real) reviews that come out, as well as shots shown and issues raised by users, will become of more interest. As for me, I've made my decision in keeping the astounding M-Monochrom that I bought last September and two days ago in acquiring a new M9-P, at which I jumped because the promotional price was only a few hundred dollars more (ex-VAT) than than that of the M-E, which I would have bought. Basically, I'm making the bet that the color rendition of the M240 will be more like color negative film while that of the M9 is more color slide film. On the other hand, even if I'm right, who would sneer at color rendition similar to Portra 400 or 800? —Mitch/Paris Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project] Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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