Official Response from Leica on Laundry List

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Good morning everyone as many of us know i started a laundry list of issue's with version 1.92 several weeks ago and had input from the LUF members. I took this list to PMA and had meetings with Stefan Daniels Product Manager of Leica M systems, Christian Erhardt Marketing manager and of course Linda Leslie Butler and Jim Butler with sales and technical info. Stefan brought the laundry list back to Germany and answered every question here except Number 21 which maybe my fault on how I wrote it. Needless to say i would like to thank Leica for taking a official response to the questions the the LUF forum presented . I basically copied what members asked. This is the e-mail that came with it will be posted on the Leica home page and also a FAQ section. Also I talked to them about my role with leica and they gave me permission to speak out which this is my decision that I want to feel comfortable with because one i am very honest and i don't like to hide anything but i am a beta tester for leica with the recent firmware that has been released and for future releases. Also i have a NDA which i do honor and will continue to do that but honestly i know nothing on future product development more than anyone else. I will continue as I have always is be a big part of this forum to help LUF members and also help leica with there products and support for leica end users. Let's move forward here

 

Stefans short e-mail on the laundry list

 

Hi Guy,

*

Please find the „laundry list“ in attached document.

*

Question No. 21 is not clear to me. We would like to put the list also on our homepage. There is also another FAQ document going to be published on our HP. This shall be online by mid of the week.

*

Stefan

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Kind regards

Stefan Daniel

Leica Camera AG /*Product Management Leica M-System/ Oskar-Barnack-Straße 11 / D-35606 Solm

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Laundry List.

 

Questions from LEICA M8 users collected by Guy Mancuso.

Answers from the Leica Camera AG team.

 

1. Let the camera go to sleep, take a picture to wake it from sleep mode, the title bar over the review image still says 0/0.

 

The wake up time of the Leica M8 is about 1 second. The time to mount the SD-Card is approx 3-4 seconds. If the shutter is fired before the SD-Card is mounted completely, there is no information about the SD-Card. In this case the Auto-Review shows 0/0, but if the play mode is activated, the camera shows the correct picture numbering.

 

2. The legend for the display time/histogram may now say "hold/Histogram" but why not "Hold/Histogram" or, if space is tight, "Hold/histogram"?

 

This can be updated in one of the next Firmware-updates.

 

3. Is there a way to add the use lower ISO’s below ISO 160 More like ISO 100 and 50

 

The basic sensitivity of the CCD is ISO 160. If we would lower the ISO settings, this would have negative influence on the dynamic range. Therefore we did not implement a lower ISO setting.

 

4 Problem with the reference pixels being corrupted by a bright light at the image border has not been fixed.

 

Leica is aware of this effect and we are working on a firmware solution with high priority. Intensive tests have still to be made; therefore we cannot give a specific launch date at this time.

 

5 Looks like one of there fixes was removing the ability to see the preview in B/W

 

When the camera is set to shoot DNG, the previous setting regarding contrast and saturation of the JPG setting have been applied to the thumbnail/review of the DNG. As DNG’s are always in color, this was a bug and has been removed. If you want to see B/W reviews in the DNG mode, please set the camera to DNG+JPG, then the B/W thumbnail of the JPG appears on the screen.

 

6 The shutter does sound different. I think I like it better--it's more "clicky" when it fires but not really louder that I can notice.

 

The shutter triggering has been modified to enhance the shutter precision even further. There is no extension of shutter delay or any other negative effects due to this modification.

 

7 AWB still seems off

 

Leica is aware that the AWB needs to be improved. Improving the current AWB algorithms did not prove to be a promising way to come to a satisfactory result. Therefore Leica is working on a new setup of algorithms to come to a reliable AWB function. Intensive tests have still to be made, therefore we cannot give a specific launch date at this time.

 

8 Lens selection option "in menu" like the Nikon D2 lineup, would solve a lot of compatibility issues...

 

Technically, this would be feasible, but we think that a manual selection would bring the risk of forgetting to change the setting when changing a lens. This is particularly dangerous, because the settings also influence DNG files.

 

9 Would love the feature, again like the Nikon D2 series, to be able to put in a name/copyright notice straight to every images exif info from the menu (the add comment feature...) works great and keep's scatter brains like me from forgetting to copyright my images.

 

Very good idea. We will consider this for further firmware updates.

 

10 THINK the WBs are more inconsistent. «Tungsten» is still bad

 

There have been no changes in the WB presets so far and we did not have complaints until now. Anyhow, in combination with the Firmware 1.10 and the UV/IR filters, there will be an adoption to the presets, especially in the tungsten mode, as there is a lot of infrared light.

 

11 “Sudden death syndrome” where the LCD does not function and renders the camera useless and needs to be replaced or repaired

 

Single cases of this “sudden death syndrome” have been reported to us. These cameras are on their way to the factory and will be examined.

 

12 Changing "compression" in the set menu does not update the frame counter until a frame is fired or the camera is power cycled

 

The described effect could not have been reproduced in our labs so far.

 

13 Menu scrolling occasionally jumps two places instead of the expected one with only a "one notch" turn of the wheel

 

Several cases of this effect have been reported to us. We are investigating the nature of this effect; we expect this to be a firmware bug and will provide a solution in one of the next updates.

 

14 I am wondering why there is a menu option to turn off lens detection. Leaving it on with uncoded lenses makes no difference in my experience

 

When uncoded lenses are used with “lens detection on”, there is a risk of a false reading when there is a bayonet screw in the position of the reading device. This happened several times in our internal tests.

 

15 Have had one instance of a card with only three images on it reading as 'full' when placed back in the camera, and upon trying to format it it basically stuck... red light blinking for 10 minutes until I had to take the battery out (power button wouldn't power it off). That has only happened once so far.

 

This is not a known issue. Not reproducible failures are always very difficult to detect.

 

 

16 Did this change from 1.091 to 1.092

 

Old color matrix

ColorMatrix1:

0.6863 -0.1407 -0.0775

-0.3086 1.1390 0.1921

-0.0971 0.2791 0.6609

ColorMatrix2:

0.6863 -0.1407 -0.0775

-0.3086 1.1390 0.1921

-0.0971 0.2791 0.6609

 

V1.092 Color Matrix

ColorMatrix1:

1.0469 -0.5314 0.1280

-0.4326 1.2176 0.2419

-0.0886 0.2473 0.7160

ColorMatrix2:

0.7675 -0.2195 -0.0305

-0.5860 1.4118 0.1857

-0.2425 0.4007 0.6578

 

This should change the color rendering of any DNG aware Raw processor

 

This is correct. We have improved the color matrix. This is i.e. used by Adobe camera raw. There is no influence when using capture one, as there is a specific profile for the LEICA M8 embedded in this software.

 

 

17 When I 'Deleted all files' on my SD Extreme III 2Gbyte card it showed the progress bar as complete, but the camera was 'frozen' - it would not switch off or respond to any buttons. Removed Battery, replaced it and then Formatted the Card, all OK - a test pic was Ok and was deleted OK

 

This is not a known issue. Not reproducible failures are always very difficult to detect.

 

18 I always like to give my Cards a (unique, personal) Volume Name. Leica suggests/demands that all cards are formatted 'in camera' - and gives the card a default Volume Name of 'NONAME', and no facility to change it.

 

We will check if there is a possibility to integrate this together with item No. 9.

 

19 The Heliopan does a better job at cutting the IR. But there is definitely more magenta cast in both than with firmware 1.09, so they ARE tweaking the color curves or response or something (I'm not much of a technician in these things) in 1.092.

 

We did not implement an improvement nor change in 1.092 to the color management. Anyhow, correct function is guaranteed only with FW 1.10 or higher and LEICA UV/IR Filters.

 

20 Split sensor the processing channels are not matching up on very long exposures

 

This is not a known issue. Please send the files for investigation.

 

21 filter on /off provision

 

??

 

22 Camera the f stop in use for exif recording or having the camera store the estimated f stop value based on the second sensor and the actually lens aperture

 

The result of the aperture detection is not sufficiently precise to write it into the EXIF header. We think this would drive the forums crazy!

 

23 Is there the possibility of an "auto ISO" feature, either from M (where you select aperture and shutter and M8 shifts ISO appropriately) or from Auto (where ISO shift is tied to shutter safe position, or something, e.g. you hit the shutter limit for the lens and the ISO shifts up or down accordingly).

 

The LEICA M8 is a camera with concentration on the essentials. We have not implemented every possible feature to keep it pure and clean.

 

 

 

24 Recommended cleaning of sensor?

 

Professional DSLR cleaning kits from 3rd parties can be used. We recommend Iso-Propanol based systems. In general it should be tried first to remove the dirt with a dry cleaning method.

 

25 PC Hot shoe with secondary hot show for external finder.

 

This feature is not foreseen at the moment. We will consider this for future models.

 

26 Expansion of lens line

 

More good stuff to come!!

 

27 When reviewing images in PLAY mode, I will advance to the next image and the next image will flash on screen for a split second, then return to the previous one. The file number indication above the image will indicate you're on the next image, but the image is actually the previous one. A second or two of waiting, and it will eventually change. Fortunately, the images are all there, and fine, but it is very annoying and time consuming to work around this in the field

 

This sounds like a bug that has been fixed from 1.09 to 1.092.

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[Venkman]

Thanks Guy for taking this up with them.

 

As for my comments:

 

8 seems to be a quite lame excuse, because one always could use "detection enabled/disabled/manual" and leave the choice to the user.

 

lol @ reply 22

 

27 has not been fixed to my experience.

 

Dirk

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Mods. can we please make this a sticky thread. Thanks Guy

[sdai]

26 Expansion of lens line

 

More good stuff to come!!

I'm sure that'll include a 75/1.4 asph ... now let's start another bet. LOL

 

Did Stefan tell you when we can receive 1.10, Guy? ... thanks a lot!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Dirk number 22 we did asked about at least making the full lens aperture known. Like a 50 1.4 lens it would show 1.4 instead of F 1. This way folks that may use different 50mm they would know if it was there lux or there Cron. More a identity than just a F1. Hopefully this can be done easily since the coded lenses tell the camera what lens it actually is anyway

[wparsonsgisnet]

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Guy,

 

First thanks for being such a good guy, and for going between for all of us. Leica has clearly chosen a good guy for beta testing.

 

Second, with regard to point number 26, expansion of the lens line, and Leica's response that more good stuff is coming -- in my particular case (altho people may not know it because I haven't posted it more than 20 times) I want a faster wide lens. I would be perfectly happy with a prime lens as opposed to a tri-lens.

 

Since Leica is in a 1000-lens back ordered state, how 'bout they extend the 30% offer to include lenses that are forthcoming. I would be happy to commit to an announced lens if they'll let us get our noses under the tent flap.

 

Regards,

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Heck I would like to know what's coming myself. LOL

 

But there are many suggestions that they heard about

 

15 3.5

24 f2

28 1.4

60mm close focus lens, like 9 inches

 

I also think and this is just my opinion, we will see more lenses like the new 28 2.8 small and a lot less expensive. besides some of the fast stuff that we know will cost big money , it seems making lenses in the 1500 US range from a marketing standpoint would get more people to buy the M8 and some lenses to go with it and a more competitive price. I say make both

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I'm sure that'll include a 75/1.4 asph ... now let's start another bet. LOL

 

Did Stefan tell you when we can receive 1.10, Guy? ... thanks a lot!

 

 

I think it was said mid April on 1.10 maybe sooner I hope.

[marknorton]

I think those responses speak well of Leica; try getting the same out of Nikon or Canon!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Mark i certainly agree with you, I know there trying very hard to communicate more with the end users and i think this is just a start. I also know they have been slammed too and some of the delays and such have put a lot on them. Hopefully things will get better for them and us as end users.

[Guest Olof]

But there are many suggestions that they heard about

 

15 3.5

24 f2

28 1.4

60mm close focus lens, like 9 inches

 

15 f3.5 may be

24 2.0 no chance at all the 24mm ASPH is to new

28 1.4 no need we already have 2 28mm lensen

 

i guess that a new Noctilux ASPH, 75mm 1.4 ASPH and 90mm ASPH will be the next lenses. (and i hope that a 75mm 2.0 chrome will come)

[hankg]

Kudo's to Leica for being so responsive. Now with the compliments out of the way, on to my rant

 

8 Lens selection option "in menu" like the Nikon D2 lineup, would solve a lot of compatibility issues...

 

Technically, this would be feasible, but we think that a manual selection would bring the risk of forgetting to change the setting when changing a lens.

This is particularly dangerous, because the settings also influence DNG files.

 

14 I am wondering why there is a menu option to turn off lens detection. Leaving it on with uncoded lenses makes no difference in my experience

 

When uncoded lenses are used with “lens detection on”, there is a risk of a false reading when there is a bayonet screw in the position of the reading device. This happened several times in our internal tests.

 

I'm not buying this explanation. They trust the user to turn lens detection on and off and make decisions about exposure compensation and ISO selection via menus all of which can be left at a setting that can screw up your photos if you forget about it. But they want this one feature to be decided by the camera in 'point and shoot' mode. Leica M is all about direct manual control by the photographer. This is a feature users should demand.

 

I understand some marketing guy might think the present set-up gives Leica an edge. But I think this is wrong-headed and simplistic. Any thing that makes the M8 easier and more flexible in use, and gives users more options will accrue to Leica's long term benefit. The long line of used Leica lenses, CV and Zeiss M compatible products, all these options make the Leica M platform more attractive to users and work in Leica's favor and expand the market it serves.

 

If the reason for the lack of this option is an engineer wanting to protect us from ourselves then that would be even worse. When in doubt always let the photographer have control!

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Yes i don't see a 28 1.4 myself . It would be just to darn big. I think that is a big area of concern is size for the RF finder and of course weight.

[Venkman]

Dirk number 22 we did asked about at least making the full lens aperture known. Like a 50 1.4 lens it would show 1.4 instead of F 1. This way folks that may use different 50mm they would know if it was there lux or there Cron. More a identity than just a F1. Hopefully this can be done easily since the coded lenses tell the camera what lens it actually is anyway

 

Guy,

 

fair enough - my lol was in regard of the "forums would go ballistic on us" reply

[Guest guy_mancuso]

They do have some fun punch lines. LOL

 

I do think there are things we can still ask for Hank like the menu option , 16 bit and stuff like that . So your rant is good and we should keep plugging away at things that would work better.

[hankg]

Yes i don't see a 28 1.4 myself . It would be just to darn big. I think that is a big area of concern is size for the RF finder and of course weight.

 

Only if it's built to accommodate a 24 x 36 image circle I know the idea of Leica 'digitars' causes an apoplectic response from many of the faithful but the fact is there are some competeing design priorities that digital and analogue don't share. Trying to satisfy the additional requirements of digital while maintaining all the requirements of film may result in expensive compromise solutions.

 

Digital not only (for now) has a smaller image circle but requires better coatings on the rear elements, performs better with wide angle designs that do not have the rear elements so close to the sensor (opposite of film) and can deliver wider dynamic range with a lower macro contrast lens (anathema to B+W film shooters).

 

Granted a full parallel digital lens line would be ill-advised but how about just one fast wide prime? Put out whatever the most used wide in 1.4 (or 1.2 ) either the 24 or 28. It could cover 24 x 36 just with crappy performance past the image circle of the M8. That way it could be a stealth digital lens -compatible with film (if you don't mind soft corners) but just ideal for the M8.

[marknorton]

After all the talk about the behaviour of the 35/1.4, this lens is ready for a makeover. I'd be surprised if Leica introduced a focal length not already supported, so a 16mm or 18mm seems more likely than a 15mm.

 

There was an interesting statistic that (ball-park), they need to sell 6000 lenses to cover the investment and tooling. A new Nocti and 75/1.4 would be a brave decision!

[ibogost]

Great feedback, thanks for the legwork Guy. Of course, it also gives me lots of new ideas.

 

For example.... hmm, so, I'm just thinking of this now -- maybe it's already been discussed. Since we don't have an ISO knob, I'd like a way to change ISO more rapidly.

 

Here's one idea. If you press SET now and press up or down you get the ISO menu to appear. Then you have to up/down and press SET again. One simple implementation that I'd appreciate is this: HOLD SET and use up down to change ISO. Then release SET to commit. This is almost how it works now anyway.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wparsonsgisnet]

Just for the record:

 

1. Items of interest to me: Fast, Wide Lens

 

2. Items NOT of interest to me: Cost, Size, Weight.

 

I have several lenses that intrude into the viewfinder. Since a Fast, Wide Lens won't be accomodated by the viewfinder anyway, I have 2 choices. I can use the viewfinder and estimate the FOV, or I can use an external finder.

 

Again, See items 1 and 2, above.

 

Regards to all,