kb7001 Posted February 7, 2013 Share #1 Posted February 7, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) I read here and elsewhere that the Summilux 50 1.4 and similar lenses are designed to be used wide open. In what way is the image degraded if one stops down to 5.6 or 8? I thought that all lenses were "better" when stopped down. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 7, 2013 Posted February 7, 2013 Hi kb7001, Take a look here lens wide open best. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Tonki-M Posted February 7, 2013 Share #2 Posted February 7, 2013 only slight degradation will occur once you reach f/16-f/22 because of diffraction. it is designed to be use wide-open just means that you can use the lens wide-open without compromise to image quality. stopping down is only slightly improve IQ whereas in other brand, performance greatly improves once stopped down. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kokoshawnuff Posted February 7, 2013 Share #3 Posted February 7, 2013 Theres a bit of hyperbole when people say a lens is meant to be used or designed to be used wide open. Optically (or technically) speaking, most modern Leica lenses reach their optimal abilities at around f/4 or f/5.6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 7, 2013 Share #4 Posted February 7, 2013 I read here and elsewhere that the Summilux 50 1.4 and similar lenses are designed to be used wide open. In what way is the image degraded if one stops down to 5.6 or 8? I thought that all lenses were "better" when stopped down. I think that the confusion is not that fast Leica lenses are specifically designed to be used wide open, but that their designs are good enough to enable them to be used wide open. Its a subtle but distinct difference. From my experience of owning and using fast prime lenses from various manufacturers, I would say that there is no doubt in my mind that lenses such as the 50/1.4 asph. are superb performing lenses and are amongst the best available when optimum performance is required at full aperture. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted February 7, 2013 Share #5 Posted February 7, 2013 I would say that this is what you are paying for when you buy a Summilux Leica lens. They can be used "wide open" and the results are still superb. Even better stopped down a little. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chalkdust Posted February 7, 2013 Share #6 Posted February 7, 2013 My limited experience suggests that Leica lenses are indeed designed to be used wide open. And they are also designed to be used at all of the other available apertures. We expect the images they produce at different apertures to differ according to well known photographic principles. None of the apertures on any Leica lens I own will produce unusable images when used within acceptable exposure limits. Leica lenses are excellent tools. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 8, 2013 Share #7 Posted February 8, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) For the best modern lens designs you may say that gaining depth of focus is the main result of stopping it down. Other characterstika won't change much but the lens will keep (almost) the same quality on every stop from fully opened to e.g. f/8. . Sometimes (though not in general!) I think this is a loss. A 60 years old 1.5/8.5 Summarex gives you very soft, sometimes dreamy results fully opened. Stopped down to f/5.6 or8 you get crisp sharpness on par with modern lenses. So you could say you have two lenses in one - and if you are able to use "both" at their best, the old lens could give you more satisfaction than the modern one... 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstlight Posted February 8, 2013 Share #8 Posted February 8, 2013 Sometimes (though not in general!) I think this is a loss. A 60 years old 1.5/8.5 Summarex gives you very soft, sometimes dreamy results fully opened. Stopped down to f/5.6 or8 you get crisp sharpness on par with modern lenses. So you could say you have two lenses in one - and if you are able to use "both" at their best, the old lens could give you more satisfaction than the modern one... Thanks UliWer. This describes exactly my Zeiss C-Sonnar 1.5/50. Very special dreamy rendering and extraordinary beautiful bokeh wide open Stopped down at 2.8 and slower it behaves tack sharp corner to corner. Cheers! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted February 8, 2013 Share #9 Posted February 8, 2013 It is a myth that fast Leica lenses are designed to be used wide open, it is total rubbish. Even the latest 50mm Summilux gets better stopped down to f/4 or f/5.6, which means Leica didn't do a very good job of designing it specifically to be used wide open, if that were the case. I think what has been mangled in the translation is that the lens is still 'good enough' to be used wide open without worrying about image quality. Steve 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 8, 2013 Share #10 Posted February 8, 2013 Even Leica can't change the laws of physics! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted February 8, 2013 Share #11 Posted February 8, 2013 Reminds me of this thread where the reviewer recommends using the lens focused to infinity only. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/230204-funny-m9-p-review-vids.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybob Posted February 8, 2013 Share #12 Posted February 8, 2013 I have a 50mm F1.4 AFS Nikon lens which is a dog wide open and until about F4 it's not really very good at all. Regardless of camera body, my 50mm Nikon AFD is completely unusable at 1.4 on anything that is in motion. At 2.8, it's like a different lens. However, my Summicron is pretty frickin' good at F2. A Summicron is not a Summilux though. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted February 8, 2013 Share #13 Posted February 8, 2013 (edited) I have a 50mm F1.4 AFS Nikon lens which is a dog wide open and until about F4 it's not really very good at all. Yes, I agree. After you've used the Summilux, the Nikon lens is very disappointing yet the 24 and 85 mm f1.4 lenses are good. It's as if they can't countenance a "standard" lens costing as much as it needs to to turn in a good performance. Paul - any experience of the Zeiss ZF.2 Planar 50mm f1.4? Edited February 8, 2013 by marknorton Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 8, 2013 Share #14 Posted February 8, 2013 It is a myth that fast Leica lenses are designed to be used wide open, it is total rubbish. Peter Karbe: "one of our optical design targets is highest performance at wide apertures" Perhaps what he means is that Leica makes lenses which perform very well wide-open whereas other fast lenses are "okay, but not exceptional wide open". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted February 8, 2013 Share #15 Posted February 8, 2013 Peter Karbe: "... one of our optical design targets is highest performance at wide apertures." "Highest" in comparison to what? Higher than at smaller apertures? Definitely not. Higher than any other makers' lenses at wide apertures? Yeah, that makes sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted February 8, 2013 Share #16 Posted February 8, 2013 Yes I would take that to mean the highest possible and practical performance wide open. But that performance will still improve as the lens is stopped down to f4/f5.6. Price and other considerations must come into play. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 9, 2013 Share #17 Posted February 9, 2013 Yes, I agree. After you've used the Summilux, the Nikon lens is very disappointing yet the 24 and 85 mm f1.4 lenses are good. It's as if they can't countenance a "standard" lens costing as much as it needs to to turn in a good performance FWIW I'd add a similar sentiment about equivalent Canon lenses - neither the 50/1.4 (which I still have because its good enough stopped down, despite its cheap and nasty, plastic feel and noisy AF) nor the 50/1.2 (too soft at full aperture - had and sold) are near the 50/1.4M asph. at full aperture. The 35/1.4 is good at full aperture (not up to the Summilux though) and the 85/1.2 fabulous but difficult to nail focus with absolute certainty (sold due to lack of use). The 24/1.4 (first version which I have and use a great deal) is good but not outstanding wide open - I'd like to try the newer version and also the Leica M equivalent but haven't so far. [Caveat - I rarely try 'testing' as such but go in for 'real world' impressions.....]. I suspect that fast M lenses spoil us, they are, relatively speaking if not theoretically, excellent performers at full aperture and do set a very high standard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
firstlight Posted February 13, 2013 Share #18 Posted February 13, 2013 A lot of our members swear by the Zeiss ZM 50mm F1.5 Sonnar Lens. I would love to have a try of one of these as from what I hear it gives a gorgeous old style look to B&W. Has anyone got any experience of this lens? I've traded it in today for the Summilux 35mm FLE. (YES! my first piece of Leica gear ) As far as I can tell (used on Fuji X-E1): wide open it delivers wonderful dreamy rendering and gorgeous bokeh, the best backgroundblur I've seen so far! (check the group on flickr for some examples) It's not that sharp wide open, so best (only?) usage for portrait. Stopped down it becomes more a modern lense - the bokeh/rendering of the oof area remains gorgeous. If you're looking for something with character in the 50mm focal length it's worth a try! If you like an allrounder, I guess the Summilux is the better choice. I definately would miss the sharpness in available light photography with the c-sonnar. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rramesh Posted February 14, 2013 Share #19 Posted February 14, 2013 Many Leica lenses do perform exceptionally well wide open compared to other makes and this is testimony to their art. However, it does not mean that one should always use it wide open. Leica would have dispensed with the aperture ring if it were to be the case. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted February 14, 2013 Share #20 Posted February 14, 2013 When I get a new Leica lens I read the manual in order to see what Leica says about their own design and use of that particular lens. It often tells you the highest f-stop they recommend. That is good for starters. Then read what Puts has said about the same lens and his experiences using it. Now you are armed with very good advice from the design team and the best analyzer to date. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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