Monochrom Banding Normal?

[raumplan]

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In case it would be helpful to others later, Leica recommended that I try an SD card that is 8GB or smaller and 30mb/second or slower for optimal compatibility.

 

Sir, is the problem solved after you have changed the card? thanks

[jffielde]

No, but it's at Leica for repair now. I sent photos to Leica, and they asked me to send it in. They evaluated the camera and agreed there was a problem that was not firmware addressable, but they couldn't determine a cause or solution. They sent it to Germany for further evaluation, and now it has been transferred to the "Quality Control Department" for further inspection. One would assume after this process that a response of "It's fine" is no longer possible. I will post a copy of the letter to Leica here, since I don't want to recreate the detail:

 

"I bought a Leica Monochrom that I think is misbehaving and I would like your thoughts:

 

The first image below was exposed to preserve highlights and then raised two stops in post. The horizontal banding is obvious (and can be seen even at one stop of exposure increase in post).

 

The second image was raised three stops to show the banding more clearly.

 

The third and final image is meant to show this this banding misbehavior isn't normal. This image is identical to the others except that I've raised it a whopping five stops with no banding. The overwhelming majority of mu images behave like this clean one.

 

I have noticed:

 

When I shoot in continuous mode, the first image is almost always clean and the remaining images are 30% - 90% banded.With faster / larger more modern cards (32GB, 90mb/sec), the banding is most frequent: it occurs in 5-10% of photos.

 

With a fairly old SD cards (8gb and 30mb /sec), the problem seems to happen in 3-7% of photos.

 

With antique SD cards (2-4GB 15mb/sec), the problem happens 1-2% (still testing). I don't like these cards because they cant be found new anymore and they're generally of very low quality.

 

I can probably live with this if I have to (because the camera images are just that good), but I starting to compensating by taking multiples of every photo I take out of fear that one will be banded. I think that's crazy to have to do, so I thought I would get your thoughts on the situation and see whether I should send it in for review or do further testing or check something you might recommend. I also don't really want to rely on 2-4GB cards, and I think something must be wrong somewhere. The camera is altogether unusable in continuous shooting mode, though I can avoid that mode if absolutely necessary."

Edited March 22, 2013 by jffielde

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[Malvolio]

I'm interested in this thread because I have the same issues with my M9 and it has been sent to Leica for repair as well. I'd be interested to see your outcome! I agree it was worse with faster new cards when I tested the camera before I sent it in...but ultimately we should be able to use any card we like ?

[douglasf13]

I'm interested in this thread because I have the same issues with my M9 and it has been sent to Leica for repair as well. I'd be interested to see your outcome! I agree it was worse with faster new cards when I tested the camera before I sent it in...but ultimately we should be able to use any card we like ?

 

FWIW, with both my faster and slower cards, my M9 bands when I shoot a quick series of shots in very lowlight and don't allow the buffer to clear and remain cleared for a few seconds between each shot. The first shot (or maybe two) is fine, but each shot after that the banding gets worse, unless I allow time in-between them.

[Malvolio]

FWIW, with both my faster and slower cards, my M9 bands when I shoot a quick series of shots in very lowlight and don't allow the buffer to clear and remain cleared for a few seconds between each shot. The first shot (or maybe two) is fine, but each shot after that the banding gets worse, unless I allow time in-between them.

 

Douglas,

 

I think this banding issue is interesting in that it can't be inherent in the design of the M9 or Monochrom. If it were I assume more people would report it as a widespread issue. It appears to be limited to a percentage of cameras. In any event I hope Leica get to the bottom of it.

[jffielde]

My M9 does not show the same behavior. Thanks for your input.

[raumplan]

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No, but it's at Leica for repair now. I sent photos to Leica, and they asked me to send it in. They evaluated the camera and agreed there was a problem that was not firmware addressable, but they couldn't determine a cause or solution. They sent it to Germany for further evaluation, and now it has been transferred to the "Quality Control Department" for further inspection. One would assume after this process that a response of "It's fine" is no longer possible. I will post a copy of the letter to Leica here, since I don't want to recreate the detail:

 

"I bought a Leica Monochrom that I think is misbehaving and I would like your thoughts:

 

The first image below was exposed to preserve highlights and then raised two stops in post. The horizontal banding is obvious (and can be seen even at one stop of exposure increase in post).

 

The second image was raised three stops to show the banding more clearly.

 

The third and final image is meant to show this this banding misbehavior isn't normal. This image is identical to the others except that I've raised it a whopping five stops with no banding. The overwhelming majority of mu images behave like this clean one.

 

I have noticed:

 

When I shoot in continuous mode, the first image is almost always clean and the remaining images are 30% - 90% banded.With faster / larger more modern cards (32GB, 90mb/sec), the banding is most frequent: it occurs in 5-10% of photos.

 

With a fairly old SD cards (8gb and 30mb /sec), the problem seems to happen in 3-7% of photos.

 

With antique SD cards (2-4GB 15mb/sec), the problem happens 1-2% (still testing). I don't like these cards because they cant be found new anymore and they're generally of very low quality.

 

I can probably live with this if I have to (because the camera images are just that good), but I starting to compensating by taking multiples of every photo I take out of fear that one will be banded. I think that's crazy to have to do, so I thought I would get your thoughts on the situation and see whether I should send it in for review or do further testing or check something you might recommend. I also don't really want to rely on 2-4GB cards, and I think something must be wrong somewhere. The camera is altogether unusable in continuous shooting mode, though I can avoid that mode if absolutely necessary."

 

My Monochrom also have similar behaviors as yours. I have been talking with some others but no one has this problem, I am thinking its the QA/QC issue....

[photomac]

When I shoot in continuous mode, the first image is almost always clean and the remaining images are 30% - 90% banded. (...) The camera is altogether unusable in continuous shooting mode (...)

 

Same with my M Monochrom.

[k-hawinkler]

You may find this interesting?

 

M9 Banding and noise issues are gone!

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/256428-m9-banding-noise-issues-gone.html

 

Of course, there could be additional problems with your cameras.

Good luck with getting them brought into proper functioning tools.

[Malvolio]

I thought most of you would find this interesting.

 

I sent my M9 into Leica for this very issue and received an email back from the local authorised repairer who advised as follows:

 

"Thank you for suppling sample images from your Leica M9, we have determined the phenomena demonstrated in the images to be unresolvable at this time.

 

Leica is aware of this phenomenon and will likely have more information in the near future. We will keep your details on record for future correspondence.

 

Thank you for your understanding"

 

This would indicate that it's an issue arising in a number of cameras. I was advised when I spoke to the authorised repairer that Leica would be addressing the issue "soonish" and that it may be firmware resolvable but couldn't be certain.

 

I will keep everyone posted because it now looks as if Leica has escalated the issue.

 

HOPEFULLY it will be resolved. The repairer remapped the sensor in any event because of an intermittent hot pixel issue but advised that once they have more info on the banding issue they will contact me.

 

As an aside, I read the other thread where it was claimed the banding issue was resolved with new SD cards but that was not my experience when I tried new cards. Admittedly the banding was not a regular problem but it should not be an issue at all IMHO for the cost of the camera.

[thrice]

I did a little comparison with 5 quite different cards I have in my possession.

 

Eye-fi 4GB Connect X2 (wifi card)

Lexar 32GB Platinum II 200x

Sandisk 16GB Ultra

Sony 8GB Class 4

Sony 2GB Class 4

 

The post is here Effect of SD card speed and capacity on noise in continuous shooting on M9

If you like I can also host the full-resolution comparison images, but since they are 20 and 11 MB respectively I have rescaled them to approximately 1/3 of original size for the post.

 

Before anyone points it out, yes I have noticed the bright line on my M9P at base ISO...

[Nick_S]

I did a little comparison with 5 quite different cards I have in my possession.

 

The Eye-fi 4GB Connect X2 also appears to have produced good results with minimal banding in your test. I found this surprising given the reports on poor M9 compatibility on the Eye-fi website.

 

Nick

[Malvolio]

I did a little comparison with 5 quite different cards I have in my possession.

 

Eye-fi 4GB Connect X2 (wifi card)

Lexar 32GB Platinum II 200x

Sandisk 16GB Ultra

Sony 8GB Class 4

Sony 2GB Class 4

 

The post is here Effect of SD card speed and capacity on noise in continuous shooting on M9

If you like I can also host the full-resolution comparison images, but since they are 20 and 11 MB respectively I have rescaled them to approximately 1/3 of original size for the post.

 

Before anyone points it out, yes I have noticed the bright line on my M9P at base ISO...

 

Thanks for sharing your test results Daniel. My experience with slower cheaper cards matches yours. I find it strange that the faster cards would show more banding.

 

Hopefully Leica get to the bottom of the issue.

[Richard.no]

I thought most of you would find this interesting.

 

I sent my M9 into Leica for this very issue and received an email back from the local authorised repairer who advised as follows:

 

"Thank you for suppling sample images from your Leica M9, we have determined the phenomena demonstrated in the images to be unresolvable at this time.

 

Leica is aware of this phenomenon and will likely have more information in the near future. We will keep your details on record for future correspondence.

 

Thank you for your understanding"

 

This would indicate that it's an issue arising in a number of cameras. I was advised when I spoke to the authorised repairer that Leica would be addressing the issue "soonish" and that it may be firmware resolvable but couldn't be certain.

 

Thank you for posting this. To me this is close to a final nail in the coffin for my dreams of another digital M. I really, really cannot understand how it is possible to sell cameras at this price point with so many problems with so many models and still get away with it. Green streaks, forever freeze, cracked sensors (even on the M9P, sold years after the problem rose to the surface), banding, requiring antiquated SD-cards, dead pixels, not providing proper firmwares months after delivery. And a service turn around time that best suits pot smoking monkeys? Only some of these have I personally experienced, thank God for that, but I pity those who did, especially those who really use their cameras, maybe even for a living. It's just sad, to be honest.

 

Before I finally punch that nail into that coffin, I sincerely hope that they will keep their latest initiative on track, namely the M 240. But I have my fears, since basically everything, except that brass box, is new, and instead of refining a pure photographic tool, getting a hold on the basics (SD card compatibility?), making sure that what matters really works (a simple, robust, yet elegant photographic tool) they had to introduce all kinds of new technology. My hope was that the MM could be that simple, elegant tool, but maybe it was too good to be true.

 

I guess I'll be enjoying my other cameras until they (hopefully, and finally) make it right.

[schmolinski]

In that case I would try another SD card.

 

Jaap, does that mean SD cards produce banding and not the sensor?

Thanks.

[k-hawinkler]

Both seem to be able to contribute apparently. SD cards only indirectly.

It depends on the specific camera. I believe the problem is with the camera.

But so far Leica has not been able to get on top of this issue.

Edited March 25, 2013 by k-hawinkler

[xrogers]

But I have my fears, since basically everything, except that brass box, is new, and instead of refining a pure photographic tool, getting a hold on the basics (SD card compatibility?), making sure that what matters really works (a simple, robust, yet elegant photographic tool) they had to introduce all kinds of new technology.

 

I'm hopeful that the new technology will make the camera more reliable. Many basic functions are provided by the firmware libraries that run on the camera's processors. Fujitsu makes camera processors and firmware libraries for companies like Nikon and Pentax, and with the Maestro, for Leica as well.

 

New technology isn't just about whiz-bang features. It also can provide more mature, use-tested, refined intellectual property, which should result in fewer freezups, better SD card compatibility, improved jpg processing, and more. I think the move to the Maestro processor is even more about stability than speed. Early reports seem to indicate that the new M is starting out as a fast, reliable camera, so I'm staying optimistic for now.

 

It isn't surprising, but still, it's too bad the Monochrom wasn't built using the Maestro.

 

Until later,

 

Clyde

[algrove]

I have used authentic Sandisk 32 GB Extreme 30MB/s cards that I bought from a source I have confidence in, like Adorama for over 2 and a half years without banding on 2 different M9's, 2 different M9P's and two different Monchroms.

 

I have heard that there have been MANY bad copies coming out of China that have found their way into the supply chain. These imitation SD cards could certainly be causing many problems in Leica cameras.

 

To date I have not seen my images look like the example from the OP using the SD cards I describe above and using the six different cameras I describe above.

 

Sure send it into Leica and if they send it back saying it is OK, then ask them what SD card(s) they used to check your camera with.

[jffielde]

At least in my case, I tried a half-dozen different SD cards recommended by Leica (including an 8GB Sandisk Extreme), and then provided them to Leica for their evaluation. They detected and acknowledged the problem immediately and replicated it on all cards, so the card selection has little relevance to my problem, other than with respect to frequency as noted in my post. As a side note, all cards work without incident in all other devices I own (all were purchased from B&H or Adorama), including 4 cameras, though Leica could be more delicate (and quite frankly, it is).

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Hallo,

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[k-hawinkler]

Fake cards may be a red herring for this problem as the cards don't corrupt the image.

It seems that for certain camera and card combinations the images suffer banding before the data gets ever written to the card.

That seems to indicate an electrical/power issue with a particular camera.

Hopefully a fix and explanation for this issue is forthcoming from Leica.