philipus Posted January 5, 2013 Share #1 Posted January 5, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Perhaps a dumb question, but I am wondering about the round wheel at the bottom of my M4. Is it for attaching a motor? Was it added afterwards? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 5, 2013 Posted January 5, 2013 Hi philipus, Take a look here Is this M4 motor capable?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted January 5, 2013 Share #2 Posted January 5, 2013 Yes. Actually it should say >> M4-P << in front. >>P<< for professional. Pofessionals used to like motorwinders in the old days ... In case of plain M4 it must have been added later. Best GEORG 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share #3 Posted January 5, 2013 Many thanks Georg. It doesn't say M4-P actually, just M4 on top, so it must have been added post-purchase. I wish I knew more about the camera. It still only has the 35/135-50-90 framelines. I've emailed the dealer to try to find out more about the camera. I am wondering if they replaced the gears with steel ones - would that have been necessary? Funny, I've owned this camera a long while but only now see this. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 5, 2013 Share #4 Posted January 5, 2013 The original M4 did not have this connector, but could be ordered already modified as the "M4 MOT" (part 10,401) from Leitz, N.Y. by 1969 (per Leitz catalog #42). I believe these did not have any special markings, as they were modified after manufacture, or you could send an M4 in to be modified. The standard M6 has that connector stock. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 5, 2013 Author Share #5 Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) Thank you Tom. I have received an email from the dealer who could only tell me that the camera was likely - he wasn't entirely sure - part of an estate. Would there be any records anywhere about when this modification would have been done? Edited January 5, 2013 by philipus Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted January 5, 2013 Share #6 Posted January 5, 2013 At one time Leitz kept such records, but with all the changes in management and ownership I doubt if any records would go back that far now. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted January 6, 2013 Share #7 Posted January 6, 2013 Advertisement (gone after registration) Perhaps a dumb question, but I am wondering about the round wheel at the bottom of my M4. Is it for attaching a motor? Was it added afterwards? It's not the M4-P, as that is another model of camera altogether. But it is a M4 that has been later modified to use the current Leica motorwinder. The factory Leica M4-M was built for the M4 motor (the big, tall, bulky early motor.) They will normally say MOT before the serial number (see attached photo.) The connector for the original motor on the M4-M cameras is three small electronic connections and not the mechanical connection that your M4 shows (and which is on the later cameras such as the M6.) Black paint factory M4 MOT cameras are relatively rare and fetch more money. But imho they aren't really feasible to buy as a user (to spend that kind of money) since the old motorwinder is not a motor one would really want to use (way too big and clumsy compared to the current one.) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/195476-is-this-m4-motor-capable/?do=findComment&comment=2206877'>More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted January 6, 2013 Share #8 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) I am wondering if they replaced the gears with steel ones - would that have been necessary? Just to add: according to DAG it's not an issue with the current motor winder on the brass geared M4 and earlier camera bodies. Apparently he has modified the M4 (like yours has been) and the M3 bodies to use the current motor winder (#14408 Leica Motor-Winder M.) There is a lot less torque and stress with the current version of winder. I think this was talked about in another thread recently(?) I can't remember which.... edit: maybe email Leica and the good repair techs in your area with the serial number and see if they have it on record as being serviced. The bottom section of your M4 was obviously replaced with one from a later camera like the M6 (the diagram is even different on the M4 and M6; the M4 has hash marks instead of a continuous line as a diagram of the film leader.) Edited January 6, 2013 by CalArts 99 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share #9 Posted January 6, 2013 Thanks for pointing out the diagram difference CalArts. Here in Holland, Will van Manen is the only one I know of who could have carried out such an upgrade. I've emailed him for any info he might have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted January 7, 2013 Share #10 Posted January 7, 2013 Thanks for pointing out the diagram difference CalArts. Here in Holland, Will van Manen is the only one I know of who could have carried out such an upgrade. I've emailed him for any info he might have. Just curious, but is there a stamp in the wax seal? Leica stopped using a stamp I think around 1980 something, but many Leica trained techs use one. DAG uses the number '92' as his seal (if he services your cameras you'll have a 92 stamped in the seal.) I think there is a list of seal stamps identifying different techs somewhere on the net (I once came across it but can't recall where.) Not all techs use a seal, but some do. Anyway, that might help identify who serviced it last. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalArts 99 Posted January 8, 2013 Share #11 Posted January 8, 2013 fwiw, here's a list from a post back in 2007: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=578094&postcount=1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share #12 Posted January 10, 2013 Thanks, that is very interesting. I'm not entirely sure what the seals is on mine. There is definitely a mark but it is difficult to see. I'll see what I can find out with a macro lens at home. I found this thread which even has a few duplicates. Btw, I just now received an email from Leica Solms. They don't have any information about when the camera was upgraded for the motor winder. They did say, however, that "it looks like the work was done by Leitz in the seventies". Not sure what they base that on, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share #13 Posted January 10, 2013 Actually I should correct myself. Since Ton Scherpenborg in Nijmegen, NL, also serviced Leicas he may have been able to upgrade as well. However, he is retired now (still he agreed to service my camera when I asked him). I see in the lists of "seals" that "O" may have been used by whoever was servicing in Nijmegen (though it could be someone in Australia, too). Anyway, here's the promised close-up of the seal. Looks like a mess to me. If there ever was a mark it's gone now. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/195476-is-this-m4-motor-capable/?do=findComment&comment=2211578'>More sharing options...
Michael Geschlecht Posted January 10, 2013 Share #14 Posted January 10, 2013 Hello Phillip, Nice camera. When you were looking thru various seals did you find a seal that looked like a rose? I think the reason some people thought it might have been done in the 1970's is: That is when the majority of these conversions were done. Some motor compatable M4's were built that way originally & had top plates marked accordingly. Some had no differentiating markings from regular M4's & some were done as later conversions which might or might not have reconfigured top plates. There are also some that were done by people other than Leitz where the original top plate was simply left as it was. Best Regards, Michael 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share #15 Posted January 14, 2013 Hi Michael You are absolutely right - I have received an email from Solms which says, in fact, that this upgrade was not made by Leica efter the 70s. Unfortunately I haven't found images of various seals. It does look like a rose actually but I can't find any references to such a seal. Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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