Hurray my M8 has got the coffee stain issue! Advice needed

[dpitt]

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Hi guys,

 

Most of you have experience with M8 before moving to the M9 so I posted this in the M9 forum and not the M8 forum.

 

A few days ago I discovered the coffee stain on my M8. Do not know how long it has been there because I hardly use the LCD screen. Mostly for a quick glance now and then and for setting menu options.

The stain is not as bad now. It is really obvious on light background, centered on the screen and about 3x2 cm. If you do not know it is there it can be easily missed on most foto's.

Problem is that I do know it is there

 

So I contacted Leica and asked them about their exchange program. My M8 is purchased in 2009 and they offer me a new M9 with 2 year warranty for 1500 + VAT(21%). It will only be available from Januari 2013 because they have run out of exchange M9's and have ordered new stock from external storage (whatever that means !?)

This is a great offer but still I have some doubts.

 

My M8 is covered in nice snakeskin black leather. I love the feel of this finish. It would be lost at trade in and can not be transferred to the M9.

 

I Love the M8 and planned to upgrade to an M9 keeping the M8 as second camera for B&W and quick switching to other lens. This plan would have to wait for a few years because I can not afford to spend 3000+ without selling my M8 now.

 

What would you do? Keep M8 with diminished value because of the stain and risk of it getting worse? Or trade in without hesitation.

 

Lens choice changes because of crop factor do not matter to me, because I have built up a nice collection of vintage lenses of all kinds of focus lengths from 28, 35, 40, 50, 90 and 135 mm. It would maybe even free up some money because I could sell the 28 Elmarit with the M9 if I feel it is too wide.

Edited December 16, 2012 by dpitt
spelling mistakes

[marknorton]

Why are they charging you 21% VAT? If it's coming from Germany, it should only be 19%.

 

I wonder what the "external storage" means? Leica often use weird terms like this and even a large number of M9's will fit in a not very large space so not clear why they have to order them in, unless of course they mean these M9's are being factory re-furbished in Portugal, ex-demo and the like. I think the term "new" should be taken in this context with a liberal pinch of salt.

 

As for whether you do it, the M9 offer will likely not be available forever and we know that after 6 years, Leica consider the M8 to be a worthless piece of junk anyway. With a failed display, It's not going to be worth much, certainly no more than the notional trade-in value against the M9 discounted by a large margin for uncertainty and hassle.

 

While I deplore Leica's incompetence in mis-managing their supply chain, I think you should trade for an M9. It's a good offer, full frame, new warranty (you only need your M8 shutter to go bad to really spoil your day) and you can say goodbye to IR filters.

 

As we say in the UK, I would strike while the iron is hot...

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[viramati]

I think Mark is right. You also have to weigh up what is more important to you the photo taking aspect or the jewellery aspect of your camera. If the former wins it really is a no brainer to switch to the M9. You get a new camera 2 years warranty and full frame and even with the new M coming out you will be getting one of the best image taking machines in the world

[lct]

Problem is for people who prefer the M8 to the M9. My own choice would be to buy another M8 and to send the invoice to Leica but the debate could well become less amicable so i cannot advise such a course of action if your cost for issuing a writ is not close to zero as is can be for me.

[dpitt]

Thank you all for your advice!

It looks like the most rational thing to do will be to trade in for an M9.

 

I am more interested in the M8 as a photo making device than as jewelery so the cosmetic issue of the leather covering is not very important...

 

While I do like the M8 and the IR filter issue and crop factor do not get in my way too much. I do see it as a disadvantage and not an advantage of the M8.

 

Leica did ask were I live before quoting me. They did not exactly say it was going to be 21% (Belgium) VAT in stead of the 19%. I hope Mark is right

 

Regarding external storage I was also puzzeled when they said no M9s where in stock and they would be in a month because I know production of M9 is supposed to be stopped. so I asked explicitly about it. This are the exact quotes from Leica:

The cost for an exchange would be €1500 + VAT. Unfortunately, no exchange cameras are in stock at the moment. Unfortunately, no exchange cameras are in stock at the moment.

We are working on a solution and I would kindly ask you to contact us again the beginning of next year.

and then

When we became aware of the issue a certain amount of M9 cameras were put aside. However, only a small amount were stored at our customer care repair shop.

More have to be ordered from external storage. I have no access to check the amounts that are left, that’s why I would like to wait to give you a definite answer.

[pop]

The production of the M9 has stopped some while ago. From what I hear it appears that the "external stock" resides mostly in the warehouses of national distributors and even shops.

 

Leica has no say in the matter of VAT. Once you import goods into Belgium, you have to pay your VAT to the national authorities. However, exporting new goods from Germany would allow you to reclaim the German VAT, provided it has been paid on those goods.

[dpitt]

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I will be happy. As long as they provide a M9 in good working order with no obvious sign of use and 2 years warranty.

 

I was already prepared to pay the 21% tax as is usual in Belgium. No issues there.

[luigi bertolotti]

That's a good deal : should such an issue occur to my M8, an offer like this would tempt me even if I'm considering the new M for half of 2013 around ... With my good lenses' set and no other expenses to afford, a FF M9 in my hands could be welcome (I could even cash in something from my UVIR filters... though I think that in 12-18 months about they'll become next to worthless....)

 

BTW... didn't they give you the alternative of M9P (at a someway higher price) ? Their statement about M9 availability is a sign that new M9s are becoming scarce...

Edited December 16, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[Steve Ash]

I envy you for the chance.

Steve

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lct]

...Once you import goods into Belgium, you have to pay your VAT to the national authorities....

True for EU companies buying out VAT but not for EU consumers who pay the seller's invoice including the latter's VAT. Reason why some non-German EU buyers were used to order Leica stuff in Germany before 2007 when the VAT rate was still 16% vs 19.6% in France, 20% in Italy or 25% in Sweden for instance. Those were the good old days!

[lct]

...I was already prepared to pay the 21% tax as is usual in Belgium...

Quite normal if the invoice is issued by your Belgian dealer but not if it is issued by Leica Germany where the VAT rate is 19%.

[LucisPictor]

The production of the M9 has stopped some while ago. From what I hear it appears that the "external stock" resides mostly in the warehouses of national distributors and even shops.

 

Hasn't somebody mentioned that Leica will exchange a broken M8 (plus money) with an M-E, once all M9 cams are gone?

[jaques]

Definitely sounds like a good deal to take the M9...

 

The oft forgot yet highly relevant irony of the m8/LCD debacle is that even if Leica had unlimited stock of LCD screens: if your M8 was out of warranty you would be looking at a 800- 1000 Euro charge to repair it? One would have to seriously ask ones self if that was worth it ...

 

I wonder what Leica will do with the old M8's? After you have agreed to the deal offer them 400 Euro for it can't hurt to try- say is is sentimental to you- with the special leather and all...

[marknorton]

I wonder what Leica will do with the old M8's? After you have agreed to the deal offer them 400 Euro for it can't hurt to try- say is is sentimental to you- with the special leather and all...

 

Interesting thought but I expect Leica will want to pull it from circulation to prevent any confusion of it being sold on and used to claim another M9...

[dpitt]

We' ll see about the VAT. I do not have an official Belgian dealer since the camera was bought in Holland and i bought it from the original owner.

Until now I only had contact with Leica and yes if they invoice it directly it should be 19% VAT.

 

In their initial response they spoke of M9/M9P

Thank you for your email. We sincerely regret that you are experiencing a problem with your M8.

You are correct that this defect can no longer be repaired. Based on the purchase/manufacturing date we can offer you an M9/M9-P in your choice of finish.

But then when they gave me an estimate price after looking up the serial number it was not explicitly mentioned

the camera was originally a demo camera sold in 2009 with a one year warranty. The cost for an exchange would be €1500 + VAT. Unfortunately, no exchange cameras are in stock at the moment.

We are working on a solution and I would kindly ask you to contact us again the beginning of next year.

[viramati]

If you're really lucky you might be able to get a deal on the new M. worth a try

[lct]

I would expect an M-E instead. What would become the F of Forced Upgrade Leica Solution otherwise? Do you like the grey color?

[dpitt]

@viramati

 

A deal on the new M? It would probably be a lot more expensive.

And I am not sure I want to shoot with the new M. There will probably be a trade off in picture quality when switching from CCD to CMOS sensor and I would want to use the rangefinder in most situations anyhow, so live view is not that important for me I think. It remains to be seen....

 

Most important for me is that Leica will have an acceptable solution for me beginning of next year.

[marknorton]

If you are offered an M9-P, I would certainly go for that, more classic look, sapphire glass, silver chrome possible, even if the pictures it takes.

 

I cannot see an M240 being offered in place of the out-of-stock M9, so maybe the apparently unloved M-E in the ghastly green-grey colour will become the new offer.

 

Truly, Leica are all over the place. They cannot repair existing product, they are out of stock of the replacement product and the new camera is not yet on the horizon and - as you say - the IQ is an unknown quantity at this point.

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[ramosa]

I would jump at the opportunity. I like my M8, but definitely see myself moving to FF before too long. Would I trade in my M8 and $2,000 for a new M9 with a two-year warranty? Yes, in a heartbeat. (But, as I don't have that opportunity, I'll wait to see what comes of the M, etc.)