I am young and foolish and no nothing about cameras...

[proby24]

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I am young and foolish and know nothing about cameras...

 

Good Morning:

 

I would like to introduce myself and ask for some advice. I have always been drawn to the aesthetics of Leica cameras and I have recently been thinking of buying one of the film cameras. I have some limited digital photography experience (with point and shoot and borrowing my sister's DSLR). I am drawn to film for the 'romance' and tradition of it and also the discipline it enforces to print the photos.

 

I have to admit, I really don't know where to start. Obviously, I am preaching to the choir here, but am I mad to contemplate a film Leica with my inexperience? Can someone help me out with narrowing down my search for the right model body. I don't have a massive budget so I will be looking second-hand and I think an M7 would be the limit of my budget. With money tight, what is the essential 'beginner' lens and how much will I be needing for that second hand?

 

Finally, if there are any Singapore members here who can recommend a reliable Leica second-hand dealer I would really appreciate it!

Many thanks, Alex.

Edited November 23, 2012 by proby24
Terrible typo in the title!

[Messsucherkamera]

Hi, Alex!

 

First off, welcome to the forum. You will no doubt find the knowledge base represented by the combined experience of members here to be an invaluable resource of incredible depth and breadth. There are many good people here who enjoy helping others learn and advance their craft.

 

First off, I see absolutely nothing wrong with acquiring and using a Leica M camera early in one's photographic life. Leica film cameras are not complex tools. They are elemental in nature. They have very few controls and do not "take over" the photographic process or overwhelm the user with a vast array of technology. Neither do Leicas "think" for you - they encourage reliance on photographic fundamentals rather than software and processors. If you understand the basics of shutter speed, aperture, ISO and focus, you are set. If you are a bit weak on these basics, they are readily learned by anyone of average intellect. This stuff is really pretty easy - it's not nuclear physics.

 

Regarding camera choice, there are a lot of choices. The M3, M4, M4-2, M4-P, M6 classic, M7 and MP are all good choices. Research your choice before buying as each has its unique features and limitations. The Leica CL and the 40mm f/2 lens made for it should not be overlooked, by the way. The CL and the 40/2 lens are a good pair to consider for those on a tight budget.

 

In terms of lenses, consider the summicrons, particularly the 50/2 and 35/2 to start out with. The Elmarit 28/2.8 is a good starter lens too. A 50 mm paired with a 28mm or a 35 mm is a great two lens set that will cover a lot of photographic ground. At f/2 the summicrons are fairly fast lenses for exsisting light shooting, particularly with ISO 400 or faster film.

 

In terms of Leica dealers, take a hard look at Fine New & Used Cameras & Photo Equipment | Camera West - Walnut Creek, California and Rancho Mirage, CA and Sherry Krauter.com -- Home of the Golden Touch. as well as Ken Hansen in New York City (Ken's email is khpny19@aol.com ) and America's Premier Leica Specialist Since 1971

 

All four of these dealers have excellent selections of Leica M gear and have longstanding track records of reliability, customer service, reasonable prices, comprehensive Leica knowledge and experience as well as honesty and integrity.

 

Hope this helps.

Edited November 23, 2012 by Messsucherkamera

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[Messsucherkamera]

@ Alex -

 

Take a look at the essay in this link - lots of good information for those looking to save money when buying good user Leicas : Leicas for Users

Edited November 23, 2012 by Messsucherkamera

[Guest MarcRF]

you'd want to buy a lightmeter if you buy a M2/M3/M4. I'd recommend a M6 with built in meter with a nice lens. if wou want a new lens I'd recommend the Summarit 50/35 strongly. used lenses can be had for much less. a newer model would be the Elmar-M 50mm f/2.8, latest collapsible version. would make a great pocketable kit.

[earleygallery]

Good advice already give. Here's my thoughts;

 

Yes - definately a good idea to buy a film camera if it appeals to you. Film is less forgiving than digital photography, it can encourage you to think more and take more care, good training for a novice! (true, with digital you can shoot 1000's of frames until you get it right and it doesn't cost anything, but it can also lead to bad habits).

 

The M7 is quite expensive, and it has AE metering (i.e. you set the aperture and the camera will set a corresponding shutter speed). If you want a built in meter and can live with manual metering then an M6 classic is a better buy, and is fully mechanical whereas the M7 has an electronic shutter.

 

Again, for a novice, I'd say jump in at the deep end and buy an M2 and a handheld light meter. Learn about reflective and incident metering, and you will have more of your budget to spend on a lens!

 

The CL is another option, but be careful as some parts are no longer available. Also I think the meter will need to be calibrated to work correctly with the newer batteries.

 

If money is tight you could also look at a Voigtlander Bessa (the latest types not the older cameras from the 60's). These are essentially M copies with built in metering and/or auto exposure. They come in M mount (same lens mount as the Leica M) and LTM which is Leica Thread Mount. Threaded lenses can be used on a M with an adaptor.

 

Lenses - depending on budget, a 50 summicron, a 50mm Elmar would both be excellent choices. I would also look at the Voigtlander Skopar lenses, the 25, 28, 35 and 50 are all excellent (I have a 25 and 35).

 

Finally, being your first camera, keep off ebay and buy from a dealer in person. You'll get lots of help/advice and be safe in knowing you have bought a checked/working camera (or if there is a problem it will have a warranty).

 

Good luck!

[iedei]

I think buying a Leica for the style or aesthetics isn't really a great reason to do so....as someone who is very much into aesthetic value, spending $3000+ or more isn't really worth it unless you are actually into photography.

 

I would suggest buying a cheaper camera to learn some basic photography on....maybe even a Leica/Panasonic point and shoot....and then as you get more into it....get an M. You could also buy a very nice NON-Leica film camera for under $100 and see if you even like taking photos...

 

Leica M cameras are definitely "art", however they are functional art meaning they are highly capable little machines built to fairly high performance capabilities. Much of the time, their capabilities are primarily limited by the skill of the user.

 

from your post...I'm not even sure you care that much about taking photos----it seems more like you want one as a style accessory....which is fine, there are far worse ways to spend money on style accessories!

 

if you do buy one...I agree with earleygallery that there are better options such as the M2, M4 or M5...all of which are more affordable and will teach you basic concepts....or get a D-Lux or X1 if you want the Leica style within an easier actual photography part of things.

Edited November 23, 2012 by iedei

[stephen.w]

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A film M is a great place to start. I always wanted a Leica, and when the X1 was announced 3 years ago I immediately thought that it would be a good place to start. The day I went to the shop to pick up my pre-order, a friend showed me a listing for an M6 and told me to get myself a real camera. I ignored his advice, thinking that shooting and processing film would involve too steep a learning curve, and wanting the immediate feedback of digital.

 

Well, 6 months later I bought that M6 and frankly haven't looked back. It is intuitive and a joy to use. I still have the X1, but mostly it languishes at the bottom of the man drawer.

[philipus]

Welcome to the forum Alex. Here's my take on your question.

 

If you're a photo novice you should sign up for a course. As an inexperienced photographer, using rangefinders - let alone those without a meter - is not a good idea at all IMHO because of the unnecessarily steep learning curve. True, as Messsucherkamera says, film Leicas are simple, but (again IMHO) their functionality adds unnecessary complexity to the learning process when one is very unexperienced.

 

So, if you have limited experience with a DSLR then continue to learn using such, or a similar, camera. Don't buy into Leica yet; you'll be disappointed.

 

Btw, buying for the aesthetics or mystique of the equipment is just plain wrong. You asked if you're "mad to contemplate a film Leica with my inexperience" - yes is my answer (sorry )

 

Digital is the best for learning because of the instant feedback. If I were you I'd get a used EOS 5D, or if funds allow the Mark II which is an excellent camera, together with the EF 50/1.4. This gives you full frame experience which is a good foundation for future development. I'd recommend you not to get a zoom lens to begin with.

 

If you truly wish to learn using film cameras and to "print", then sign up for a suitable course that also covers printing (I assume you really mean traditional printing of your own photos). Then buy one of the many absolutely dirt-cheap film bodies out there. As I come from a Canon background I'd recommend getting something like an EOS 1N which can be had for very little (like the equivalent of €150) these days but which is a great, reliable camera, plus the lens I suggested above. But seriously you can get whichever film body plus a 50mm 1.4 lens and get amazing results. In fact you could get a manual Nikon, Canon or Pentax and a lens and use that as your first real camera to learn on.

 

When you eventually decide to leave the (D)SLRs behind to buy into Leica, put the money to the lenses, not the bodies. The article linked to above is good; buy ugly but well-maintained. And, like I said, spend on the lenses.

 

But always remember Leica doesn't make you a better photographer. Only you can do that.

 

Cheers

[luigi bertolotti]

Hi Alex

 

1) Nothing wrong if one is tempted to buy a film Leica... they are beautiful, and the M are also perfectly usable (the old Screwmount models are even finer, in a certain sense, but someway less easy for a user)

 

2) Of course, an high % of people in this forum will tell you that buying a fine classic M and a classic Summicron is never a mistake... and I am with them .

 

3) BUT... starting the learning curve of FILM Photography and related process, TODAY, is a task one must ponder with care : film is NOT dead, but is NOT the future of photography, period. Anyway, one can decide, for personal disposition, that film IS his way of expression : in this case, I'd bet one has at least 20 or more years of film availability in front, and Leica can be one of the best choices... : MY first M was bought, used, 27 years ago... works fine... should I had any need to repair it, no problems.

 

4) Otherwise, if your main driver is not to become a deep and skilled film photographer, with a M (*) you'll have a fine item to take some good picture anytime you decide to take it with you, even just for honest family & holyday pictures.

 

 

(*) Which one ? Opinions abound here... : I have always thought that a fine and practical duo of lenses to carry with is 35+90... and this couples well with a M2, or, to spend less, on a CL set 40+90.

[Guest MarcRF]

given the previous answers I think I should clear my background.

 

I've started photography after a 11 year break (im 24..) in june and got to film short after and I'm using my M6ttl exclusively for 3 months now. I got a X100 but I have only used it for pics of the Leica... (:rolleyes:)

 

the learning curve isnt that high. takes about 2-3 color films to be comfortable with that (and with the whole loading, rangefinder focusing, exposure with center weighed meter if you buy M6) and if you develop B&W and home it takes about 5 films of B&W to be comfortable with that.

 

by then you know nothing about push/pull processing or increasing/decreasing contrast etc. but you know how to develop your own film that, if exposed correctly, comes out great.

 

I dont regret the jump and it is an awesome hobby. I dont care anymore whether I can just put a sd card into the slot and instantly look at the pics. now it's usually the next day.

 

you should know what you're getting into. if you do know that and still want it you'll have great fun. for me it was the best I've done so far in the hobby section.

 

Cheers

 

edit:

 

you might call me young and foolish too

Edited November 23, 2012 by MarcRF

[earleygallery]

I say if you fancy trying a Leica just do it.

 

Buy wisely and you won't lose anything if you don't take to it and want to sell the camera. Buy very wisely and you could even make a profit!

[pico]

I got into the Leica when I was young and foolish. It was one of my better decisions.

 

You have received some excellent advice from veteran Leica users.

 

You mentioned an M7. Be aware that early M7 camera owners were offered an upgrade that fixed some occasional problems with the film-speed reader (DX code reader), and possibly a viewfinder update. A M7 without those updates should be a better buy. Over the past several months the average selling (not asking) price for M7s on that big auction site was $1,950. I do not know if any were updated or not.

 

(I have two M7 without updates and they are just fine.)

 

If you can do without automated exposures (including flash), then the M4-P is a less expensive, but still very good camera because 1) it is the smooth M4 and 2) it has all the viewfinder frames, and 3) it can take a motor wind or Abrahamsson RapidWinder. (expensive options for later consideration.) Of course you will need a light meter to use the M4-P. I would recommend against buying a Leica clip-on meter.

 

M4-P bodies on the auction site sold for between $600 and $725, very good buys.

 

Leicas have different viewfinder magnifications. The universal, very common .72 is good.

 

I cannot recommend a particular lens but wish to repeat the suggestions of others to consider earlier lenses as long as you can be sure they are in good condition. That's the hard part.

 

Very Best of Luck

Edited November 23, 2012 by pico

[ejd]

Alex -- Are you in Singapore? The rangefinder forum on Rangefinders is full of people in Singapore who know a lot about Leicas and the local market for them. There are all those second hand camera dealers in that shopping mall on Coleman Street near Ruby Photo, and some of the rangefinder photographers meet informally in the food court in that mall on Saturday afternoons. There are more shops on the other side of Coleman Street in Peninsula Plaza -- Cathay Camera and one or two 2nd hand dealers. There's also the rf.sg web site. And Chiif Cameras (http://www.chiifcameras.com) in the Excelsior Shopping Centre along Coleman Street -- cosina/voigtlander but very keen on film and rangefinder cameras generally

[steveclem]

A rangefinder is quite different to a SLR or P & S. If you're unsure where to start you could do worse than start out with the Yashica GS/GT models for a try out? Not the same as a Leica but you'll get the rangefinder and film experience for a pittance to get a taste of what's to come.

If you're interested in the properties of film, then as earlier suggested , a film SLR would be easy and extremely cheap to obtain;I've just bought a lovely conditioned Minolta SRT 101b, a cracking mechanical camera.

If it's just about aesthetics then why bother with an expensive precision instrument?

[proby24]

Firstly, I want to thank everyone for their kind advice, I have followed some links and think I know a little more about what I want and what I can achieve with my budget (a hard ceiling at around $2500). I am in no rush to buy and rather relish the chance to delve more into my options and read and research.

 

I am thinking a M6 with a 50mm lens to start would be most suitable and just about in budget.

 

Just regarding my comment on enjoying the 'aesthetic' of Leica cameras. This is purely a by-product of owning one of these cameras, and if I buy a M6 it certainly won't be seen gathering dust on a mantelpiece. The camera will be bought for extensive use and i hope it will be hanging from my neck most times I step out the door on quiet afternoons and holidays. I want a camera I can learn with, and grow with, and one day I can say I can take a decent photo. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I realise I have a vast amount to learn and I am looking forward to this learning process.

 

Thanks again for all those who have helped me so far on my little journey.

Alex.

[philipus]

Alex, just to add that the Rangefinder Singapore site is at RFSG.

 

Seems like I'm an odd one out here, but note my advice was based on the impression that you have very little photographic experience. As much as I coveted Leicas in my teens and 20s when working a camera shop during holidays and weekends, based on my current experience with Leicas, I am happy I didn't start out with them. But everyone is different.

 

As a beginner kit an M6 and a 50 is a very good choice. Is 2500$ in Singapore dollars (equivalent to 1500€) or USD (equivalent to 1900€)? Here in Europe, the body would cost about 850-1000€ at a dealer, though price levels may be very different in SG of course (and do remember to buy ugly but well-maintained optically and mechanically).

 

As for which 50 that will depend on how much money you have left. An older Summicron would definitely do the trick and could fit in the budget. However, don't exclude for instance the 50/2.8 Elmar or even a clean Summitar (with screwmount adapter which can be had for little). There are lots of others too of course.

[de-JTC]

Hey Alex,

I was in the exactly same position about two years ago.

I had some experience in photography, but was an absolute beginner in analog, especially lab-work.

After this time with my two Leicas I have to say that it was the best decision to "give in" to that desire and just go ahead.

The Leica is such a simple camera with absolutely no frills, but with great quality whether the rugged and solid built or the amazingly sharp and clear pictures.

A great M for beginners is an M6 - I started out with a mintish M6TTL as I also love the Leica design and liked the bigger dial much better than the smaller one of the M6 classic. However the classic M6 is readily available and probably gives you the best "bang for the buck" when it comes to used M bodies. Most importantly it has a built in lightmeter which is really neat for beginners and casusl shooting.

A 50mm Summicron, whatever version, has to be the classic and ultimate Leica lens as it combines all properties associated with Leica (amazing quality, lightweight, small, fast enough) and also offers a great value at 500-1000$ (dependant on version, color and how used it is).

Short: a nice user M6 classic with a 50mm Summicron (version type 3 or 4) will be a great kit to start out, as there is a large amount available at various resources (classifieds, auction sites, retailers) for good prices.

I wish you the best of luck for your "treasure hunt" and enjoy your Leica - I promise that you'll never regret taking this step - it really made a major difference to my photography and steepend my learning curve quite a bit - I hope your experience will be similar.

Cheers, Jan

[Guest Benqui]

Hi Alex,

 

to use an analog Leica is really a very good decision. No matter which one you will take, you will love it. Concerning lenses, do not forget to take the summarit line (35 or 50mm) into account. They are very compact in combination with a very good performance.

 

best regards

 

Marc

[designed]

I am thinking a M6 with a 50mm lens to start would be most suitable and just about in budget.

 

While there are many, many good answers to your initial question of what to get, I'd say you are on a very good path. Relish and enjoy the Leica and shooting film, you will be rewarded.

 

Few of my favourite Leica guides come from one Japancamerahunter, and I must say he knows his stuff: What is the best Leica M for you?, Why I think the M6 is the best Leica rangefinder, Lens for your Leica and finally What you should know about Leica cameras, which gives a few pointers on what to look for.

 

Stay hungry, stay foolish.

Edited November 27, 2012 by designed
bettering the languageing

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Hallo,

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[Reds]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I repeat what someone said already. If you like it - go for it!

 

You can learn on anything. There's no magic rule that says inexperienced people have to start on a point and shoot.

 

If you buy what you don't want - you'll only lose money on it, and end up spending more so get what you want first. I should listen to my own advice !