90/2 or 90/4, summarits or 75/2?

[skinnfell]

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Dear forum

 

I apologize for yet another "which tele" post, but I am losing sleep here over this decision:

 

The end of the fiscal year (in this country) is approaching, and if I buy a lens now I can make a huge deduction. Hence I have the chance to introduce one new lens to my stable.

 

My dealer says they have 90Apo, 90Macro, 90Summarit, 75Summarit available at short notice. (IE, In stock at distributor)

So far so good.

 

Unfortunately I live out in the boondocks, so getting access to try these lenses is impossible.

 

I do photojournalism, and having a wide aperture is definitely appreciated since many of my stories require indoor shooting. However, a good story always includes some good details, so I will often push the lenses well into the closest focus range (under 1m) but these shots are done mostly with a tripod for maximum sharpness. My desktop people love to make large enlargements/crops of detail shots. Bokeh on the other hand is not a big deal for me.

 

In other words, I have conflicting needs for both close-up performance and low-light abilities. The 75 cron seems to be the only lens that can do both good close-ups AND low light work, but "nobody" has seen this lens for the best part of the year, and the dealer says it extremely unlikely they will show up before the end of the year (and in time for my tax deduction). Besides, the extra reach of 90 would be appreciated as well.

If I get the 90macro it will probably never get used with the adapter.

Buying used is not an option at this point since the tax refund (25% of the value) only applies on new products.

 

I am currently leaning towards the 90Apo. I have no doubts this is stellar in the long range and low light, but since close up is important too, i got several questions regarding this:

 

1. Is the 90Apo really that bad at close ranges? At say F4 and 1meter, how far away is it from the 90macros performance?

 

2. Are any of the summarits better than the 90Apo in the close range?

 

3. When close-up performance and low light performance are both equal attributes, is the 75Apo so much better than the rest that it is worth waiting for?

 

For the record, my other lenses are 24elmarit + 28cron + 35cron + 50cron. I also have a M on order, but i am not expecting to see this until well into next year.

 

Sorry for a long and meandering post, but any insight provided will be appreciated :-)

Edited November 13, 2012 by skinnfell

[pgk]

The lenses that you list are ALL superb lenses. Period. I've only use the Summarits and have had pre-asph 90mm Summicrons and the 90mm Elmarit-M and all were very good indeed however I currently have just (re-)bought a 90mm Elmarit-M because I stupidly sold this lens and regretted it. Given your requirements of low light abilities I'd go for the 90 Apo-Summicron. If you shoot in low light speed matters. (I had the 75mm Summicron but realised that I much prefer the 90mm focal length).

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[01af]

1. Is the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph really that bad at close ranges?

No, it isn't. At full aperture, it is so extra-ordinarily good at longer ranges, the drop-off at close range becomes comparatively obvious. But when stopped down to f/4 or f/5.6, performance at 1 m is just fine. The Macro-Elmar-M 90 mm, at f/4 and 1 m, might be slightly better still—I never actually did this comparison but I wouldn't expect big a difference at, say, f/5.6.

 

 

2. Are any of the Summarits better than the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph in the close range?

I don't know but according to Puts, no. They're about equal.

 

 

3. When close-up performance and low light performance are both equal attributes, is the Apo-Summicron-M 75 mm Asph so much better than the rest that it is worth waiting for?

No, not really. It's only half a stop faster than the Summarits, and while sharpness at full aperture and close range is a tad better indeed, it flares badly at close range and is very hard to focus. And when stopped down to f/4 or f/5.6, performance is about equal again (maybe not quite ... but nothing to base a buying decision upon).

 

I guess you'll become most happy with either the Summarit-M 90 mm or the Apo-Summicron-M 90 mm Asph. However the latter adds a lot of bulk, weight, and cost to the former, for just half an f-stop more speed (which is not too useful at close range when best sharpness is required).

[Guest MarcRF]

I've tried most of the lenses for a short amount of time. I've decided to buy the 90 Summarit. depending on your standard lens (35 or 50) I would then decide. a 90 would suit a 50 better but with a 35 you're free to choose.

 

the summarit line is a perfect thing if you want large aperture, great performance and lightweight in a small package. they perform all close to the summicron versions (although the apo asph are better because they are so optically superior)

[mustafasoleiman]

The 75/2 has the big advantage over all the other options to focus down to .7m, which makes it great for close ups. It is a fantastic lens and I have used it a lot with my 35.

 

The only reason I am selling mine on this site is that I have now bought a Summilux 50, which is close to it and I also have a 90/2.8 for the longer reach, so I don't use it much anymore... Probably I will regret it but eh!

 

You can probably save more than 25% on a used one, btw...

[ivohula]

Beware of lateral chromatic aberations (purple fringing) which are common on the 75 and 90 Summarits. This is most often seen in areas of sharp black and white contrast, such as pictures of winter trees covered in snow. This problem can be fixed in Photoshop in post processing, but would you really want to? Flare has not been an issue for me.

 

This problem is much less pronounced in the APO lenses like the 90/2, 75/2 or even the 90/4 macro.

 

I use the Summarit 75mm for indoor portraits, as long as there is no backlighting and it works fine. Outdoors, is a gamble. In the end, you get what you pay for.

 

The Summarits also have a rather cool clinical rendering which puts off many people.

 

Why should you care? You may not, if you just take snapshots for your own use. But, if your photos are critiqued by other photographers, or you sell your images, like me, it is an issue.

[!Nomad64]

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Go for the AASPH.

If you do photojournalism you can't go without f2. For details go as close as you can and crop/enlarge. Just think that when you do pixel peeping at 100% on an M9 generated file you're probably staring at a print larger than one meter. I think it should suffice, especially bearing in mind that the photos aren't going to be printed on fine art paper but at the best on a magazine double central page. Otherwise they'll be reduced. If the photos go on newspapers then the quality decreases further so I wouldn't lose my sleep about it.

Finally I wouldn't associate photojournalism with top notch quality, but rather emotions and storytelling. Capa's photos weren't famous for being sharp. But that's just me and I probably got lost in the meanders of the former century

 

Hope this helps,

Bruno

[otto.f]

1. Not at all, the 90/4.0 I owned was less convincing between 0,30 and 1m than a crop from the 90APO. Although I find it a very sympathetic lens, I find it less value for your money. The bokeh of the 90APO below 4.0 is something you do not want to miss for some macrowork; your job is photojournalism. The quality of the macro-work with the Elmar 90 is not that convincing for that price if you realize that this works generally better with a dSLR set for that money also

Edited November 13, 2012 by otto.f

[IkarusJohn]

I've sent you a PM, Skinnfell.

 

I had the APO 75 Summicron, and sold it - I couldn't reliably focus it and I had 2 ASPH 50s, so I got the 75 Summilux instead (better focusing, and different rendering). I received my new APO ASPH 90 today, and I'm looking forward to trying it. Thankfully, it's smaller than I feared it might be. With 28-50-90 in my bag, I'm feeling well set up.

 

With your existing lens collection, you could go either way - 75 or 90. If close focus is a concern, the 75/2 is probably a better choice as the lens is tack sharp and cropping will solve any issues with reach.

 

Cheers

John

[MarkP]

Some thoughts on the 4.0/90 Macro-Elmar-M. This might be useful but I understand that for your line of work you will probably need a faster lens...

 

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/customer-forum/228593-praise-4-0-90-macro-elmar.html

 

 

 

 

ps: You do not have to use this lens with the macro-adapter to benefit from it's close focussing ability.

Also, I'm very happy with my 2.0/75 Summicron ASPH. For me, the faster 90's and the 75 Summilux are too big and heavy for what I want.

Edited November 14, 2012 by MarkP

[IkarusJohn]

Here's my first shot with the 90/2, taken on the way to work this morning.

 

M9, at ISO 160, f/4 at 1/500, processed in SEP2. I've included a crop - I focused on the end of the wharf.

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[andym911]

not sure what level of quality you are after but I have never been dissppointed with my wonderfully light, small and super sharp tele emlarit....

 

close up it is amazing..long range too.

I think I paid 400 euro for it.

best

andy

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[iphoenix]

 

I do photojournalism, and having a wide aperture is definitely appreciated since many of my stories require indoor shooting. However, a good story always includes some good details

 

For the record, my other lenses are 24elmarit + 28cron + 35cron + 50cron. I also have a M on order, but i am not expecting to see this until well into next year.

It may help if you tell us which body/bodies you intend to use the lens/es with. Also, IMHO, wide aperture is mandatory.

[skinnfell]

It may help if you tell us which body/bodies you intend to use the lens/es with.

 

Leica M 240. I do have a M9 now but that will go as soon as the M shows up.

Customers are screaming for video and although I hate it I will start making moving images if it pays the bills.

 

My problem is twofold since I do different things with the camera. First "regular" photo/videojournalism, where a wide aperture is very appreciated.

 

Then, some architecture, environmental fine art stuff which require tripod and large enlargements and sometimes close focus. But then at F8 or so.

The point here is to get as close to medium format quality as possible. (I know I ideally should have a S2 for this work, but I have neither the funds or desire to get into a whole new system.)

[IkarusJohn]

Sculpture in the Park

 

APO Summicron 90, ISO 160 at f/2

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[IkarusJohn]

And another - f/5.6 at ISO 160

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[rramesh]

If you are willing to go used, you could pick up a late model Elmarit-M 90. Excellent lens.

[akiralx]

I shoot all four Summarits and the 90 f/4 Macro-Elmar (great lens but not fast enough for you). I used to own the 75 Summicron but couldn't justify keeping it after shooting the 75 Summarit alongside it - apart from the MFD the Summarit seemed as fine in every way for real-world photography. Smaller, lighter, cheaper and easier to focus are just a bonus.

 

I did sample an 90 Summicron APO recently at a dealer but again the 90 Summarit seemed to give just as good results, and the speed difference is negligible. All the 90 Summicron photographs above would look identical if shot with the Summarit in my view (and while I like them most seem to lack sharpness to me).

[Messsucherkamera]

I have the 90/2 Summicron APO and I am extremely happy with it. It is <IMHO> the best of the Leica M long lenses for low light situations where you need a bit of reach to avoid being intrusive when photographing (for example) religious services.

 

The 75/2 is perhaps a better choice for handheld portraits in low light situations.

 

The 90/4 is somewhat of a special purpose lens. For closeup use, it will outperform the 75/2 and the 90/2 - but f/4 is awfully slow if you do much low light photography. I you shoot with the M9, M9P or Monochrom M in particular, the variable ISO setting capability helps to negate the slow maximum aperture of

f/4.

 

You need to examine your needs before buying a long lens. If price is not an issue, let the use the lens will be put to determine your choice. That having been said, none of the three lenses in question is a bad of marginal lens in terms of quality. Each lens excels at certain shooting situations but will serve you well in other shooting scenarios.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Messsucherkamera

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[skinnfell]

Thanks to everyone who contributed. A new baby is in the house, (no, wifey is not due for antoher two months). I ended up getting the Apo-summicron 90.

 

Observations after a few days use:

- Heavy lens, but balances beautifully on the camera.

- Not hard to focus once you learn how to hold it.

- A thumbs-up must be ordered soon, or I will get carpal tunnel.

- No focus errors as far as I can tell

- Mechanically a work of art (as are all the other leica lenses)

- New style, hard lens cap with engraved leica logo!

 

I am now at a point where I can not think of any other Leica lenses I need for a good while. As you can see I have a sweet tooth for summicrons, as I think they are the perfect compromise between speed, size and sharpness.

( considered selling the 24 for a while because I thought it too wide, but I chickened out and kept it.)

 

And here is a new family photo: (Sorry about the crappy iphone picture)

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Edited November 27, 2012 by skinnfell