Dipping my toe in the S2 pond

[marknorton]

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I spent an enjoyable day with Leica in London at the invitation of Red Dot Cameras to take a closer look at the S2 and 5 of the lenses. This was the existing camera, not the new one, some deals to be made on the residual stock.

 

In a few words, I was blown away by the image quality on screen (Eizo Color-Edge Monitors). I have no MF experience at all but it's clear this camera/lens combination is a significant step forwards from either the M - great lenses but you can't focus it reliably - or my best existing SLR setup - a D3X and the (very few) lenses which pass muster.

 

The IQ reminded me of some of the images I saw on a DMR and Leica R glass, only more so, not just resolution but a natural three-dimensional look with great bokeh and depth of field control.

 

I wasn't much taken with the operation of the camera, maybe it doesn't need as many controls as my Nikons but it can be an awkward beast at times to use; the AF is slow which rules out the camera for sports and the like where a D4 is in its element. But, for the type of photography the camera is intended for, it stands head and shoulders over anything I have tried.

 

I think the improvements in the new S are worthwhile which rules out grabbing one of the end-of-line S2s. Overall though, I was very favourably impressed.

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[GMB]

Mark,

 

I have the S2 since 20 months now and I use it alongside the M9. I find the operation extremely simple and intuitive and the files you get leave you so much room for post processing "corrections".

 

Autofocus is indeed slow and does not cope well (or at all) with objects moving (fast) towards or away from you. However, it is very precise and I have very few shots with missed focus. I even shot wildlife with it and have very good results.

 

I looked at the new S at Photokina. Most of the new features are "nice to have" but in my view not essential. The only feature that I think could be a noticeable improvement is the improved autofocus, but I would have to see it live and in action (interestingly, the person who showed me the new S in Cologne cautioned that the autofocus of the S, while improved, is still not anywhere near that of the Canikons). Given that the S2 resale value has dropped quite significantly, I am not planning to upgrade; I think the money is better invested in a new lens.

 

Not sure what deal you were offered, but I think that something like 30% off the list price would make the S2 look interesting.

[philipus]

(interestingly, the person who showed me the new S in Cologne cautioned that the autofocus of the S, while improved, is still not anywhere near that of the Canikons).

 

I tried the S at photokina and was left with the impression autofocus-wise that Leica has a long way to go before they even get close to Canon. I used to shoot an old EOS 850 with the 35-70 kit lens (non-USM). That's how the S's autofocus was speed-wise.

 

I can't comment on the focus precision but certainly don't doubt that it may be better than whatever Canon or Nikon has. The shots I took were all very sharp (on the S screen).

[stephan_w]

I can't comment on the focus precision but certainly don't doubt that it may be better than whatever Canon or Nikon has. The shots I took were all very sharp (on the S screen).

 

on the screen you can in no way judge the image. The screen is almost only there for the menue :-)

 

Some words of the Nikon/Leica AF comparison. Sure you will never shoot sports with a S2 (not to say the the lenses are missing too). Or even other moving objects :-)

 

BUT the point is that if you shoot for example fashion and the model is not jumping around like a monk (lol had this this summer), then the S2 autofocus is a lot more precise and reliable than the Nikon. I have almost 0 misfocus on the S2 but still some on the D800 (even if this is better than on the D3x).

 

In my opinion this comes from the bigger and brighter view-finder of the S2, and this ultra thin focus cross of the S2, where you have a average "point" on the Nikon.

 

I will not upgrade either, as from what I heard the new AF-module is somewhat "guessing" the distance of moving objects, which has to be tested first to convince me.

[hoppyman]

I have no medium format AF experience at all beyond a handful of frames with an S2.

For focus speed I would have expected that 35mm sensor dSLRs ought to routinely operate more quickly than any medium format digital system?

I mean purely on the size of the lens components being driven?

Happy to be educated on this by those with some experience with the MF digital systems.

Any comparative speed impressions on the S lenses against say the Hasselblad ones on their own system?

 

Entirely anecdotal, I noticed no significant delay at all with the forty or fifty frames I shot with the S2. Focus speed wise it just felt like the D600 with AF-S primes I also use now when the M9 is less suitable. I mean using a single point focus-lock recompose approach.

I do know that the files from the S2 are compelling.

[mwilliamsphotography]

Actually, the controls are quite well thought out. Each of the four buttons next to the screen can be assigned a user function ... so ISO, WB, etc. can be arranged as you wish for fast direct access. Once the rhythm is established it is as fast or faster than any other camera.

 

The AF speed benefits greatly from assigning it to the thumb button on the back of the camera to separate it from the shutter button. I use the same configuration on my Hasselblad H4D/60.

 

S2 focus speed is roughly the same or a tiny bit faster compared to the H4 camera with the H camera AF accuracy being significantly superior due to the innovative True Focus APL feature for focus/recompose of off-center subjects shot closer with wider apertures.

 

Neither the S2 or H4D are all that great for squirmy, jumpy subjects like kids ... especially in flat or dim lighting. Both cameras offer big bright viewfinders and full time manual focus which can help in such situations.

 

The S2 is simply easier to take with. The Hasselblad excels in the studio, and provides much better tethered operation through the Phocus software. Probably due to being F/W 800 transfer to mature and dedicated proprietary software.

 

-Marc

[colonel]

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In a few words, I was blown away by the image quality on screen (Eizo Color-Edge Monitors). I have no MF experience at all but it's clear this camera/lens combination is a significant step forwards from either the M - great lenses but you can't focus it reliably - or my best existing SLR setup - a D3X and the (very few) lenses which pass muster

 

I am also interested in the S2. The camera is pretty compact for a MF but the lenses are quite big compared to 35mm SLR.

 

I am surprised at your comment about the M. I find the focus far more precise and reliable then the 5Dii, D700 or D800E. In fact the RF focus remains for me one of the key attractions of the M

 

For those that moved from 35mm to MF, is there a big difference in bokeh ?

I presume the f2.5 lenses are sharp at f2.5. Equivalent to f1.8 on 35mm ?

 

Some keen ex demo and used deals including the 70mm f2.5 at the moment. Seems like an ideal kit.

[kidigital]

The sharpness and rendering of S lenses at f2.5 are fantastic. I'd invite anyone who is curious about the image quality delivered by the S2 to try one out for a day. It's really the only way to see if the camera and lenses meet your expectations.

[colonel]

The sharpness and rendering of S lenses at f2.5 are fantastic. I'd invite anyone who is curious about the image quality delivered by the S2 to try one out for a day. It's really the only way to see if the camera and lenses meet your expectations.

 

great idea

i am going to go round in London to the Leica store or red dot to take some pics

 

Do you have any good gallerias/examples of photos on the web I can look at ?

I always find search in photo.net or flickr very hit and miss ....

[kidigital]

Harold, check out my blog. Except for a few OMD shots, 99% of the shots are with the S2. Unfortunately, I don't have them broken out by lens, but it should give you an idea of what is possible beyond the fashion shots that Leica uses to market the system. There are some shots with the alternative lenses (Mamiya 80/1.9, Zeiss 110/2) on the camera. The bokeh on the 80/1.9 can get a little crazy, but the S lenses are much more controlled.

 

Here's the link: Blog | Kurt Kamka

[01af]

I presume the 1:2.5 lenses are sharp at f/2.5

Yes, they are ... which of course doesn't mean they wouldn't become any sharper when stopping down a little.

 

 

Equivalent to f/1.8 on 35-mm format?

In terms of depth-of-field, f/2.5 on S format is equivalent to f/2 on 35-mm format—when assuming the same level of acceptable sharpness in the prints. But then, you want to use the S system for improved sharpness and the ability to print bigger for the same viewing distance. When fully exploiting the possibilities then depth-of-field effectively becomes narrower because you'd have to assume a smaller maximum diameter for the circles-of-confusion.

[Messsucherkamera]

Having never seen an S2 othet than on a computer monitor or in print, I am curious about the non professional application of the S2 system.

 

What do amateur users of the S2 use it for? Perhaps I don't understand this camera but it seems that the new M or the M9P or M Monochrom would perform admirably for non professional applications.

 

I'm just wondering what motivates S2 owners to sink such a large sum of cash into a camera that they do not use for their livelihood. Is it about image quality? Or having the best? Or is it something else?

[erlingmm]

In response to Messucherkamera's question above:

 

I just bought a S2 kit with 3 lenses, I managed to get an exchange with some M-lenses that I rarely used, so I limited the cash exposure to about the cost of the 50 APO Summicron (I had set aside the money, but the lens is now delayed until March 2013, at least). I got the MM when it came out (VERY happy with it), and just sold my M9P (probably a bit too early), so I was currently without a color camera. So, I was in a "vulnerable" position when this offer came. I admit that I would not have paid for this kit fully in cash, only as I could exchange 3 little used M lenses (including the Noctilux 0.95:-( as part of the deal.

 

Why? I think of it as a camera for daylight/controlled light settings, but not a travel camera (unless I am in a car). I have only used the S2 for a week or so. It is BIG, especially when packed for transport with lenses, but it is quite OK to take on the shoulder for a walk, with an extra lens in a wide pocket. I used it yesterday in a children's birthday with the SF58 flash (diffused) with good results (but would like another SF58 as slave). The camera needs good light, and I don't expect to use it much above ISO320. The autofocus is OK for stable objects but not for running children, however it can be used with manual focus and AF activated intermittently, I have to train more for that. I also expect to use it for landscape photography, where the extreme resolution will be an advantage. I also assist on some weddings, and think the S2 will add a dimension to the M in that setting.

 

The lenses are just incredible (take a look at the MTFs!). The 120 besides being a fantastic portrait lens, is also a macro lens, and the 180 has an attachment for close-up focus. I have heard rumors about a 300mm, which would give real telephoto as an option. Lenses from other manufacturers can be used via adapters.

 

There are a few kits out now (eBay, this forum). The new S comes out in December at USD22.000 with better ISO, so personally I would not pay more than USD 10.000 for a used S2 body now, preferably as a part of a kit, possibly with the 70mm (normal), which separately is the least costly of the lens line-up.

 

I think of the M as a low/available-light, "in-the-field", travel, documentary style camera, and will continue with it. The S will be more controlled light, autofocus, daylight, weather sealed, landscape, ultimate IQ, for me, but I guess this will evolve with use.

 

I would be happy to exchange experiences with other novice (and experienced) S amateur users.

Edited November 18, 2012 by erlingmm
typos

[Dougg]

...I'm just wondering what motivates S2 owners to sink such a large sum of cash into a camera that they do not use for their livelihood. Is it about image quality? Or having the best? Or is it something else?

 

Well, I've long favored medium-format film cameras, both RF and SLR, and in SLRs prefer the form factor and user interface like the S2. So, coming from the P67II the S2 seems petite.

 

I gave a lot of thought to the Pentax 645D but ultimately was dissuaded by the shape/handling, and the control layout too much like a typical dSLR. The S2 was then the natural but pricy yet top-quality alternative. I don't have kids in college or in need of help with housing or starting businesses, so I may have fewer constraints than some.

 

Yes, part of it was having the best, so for sure my poor pics won't be the camera's fault. Gives me something to live up to, to the degree I am able. The lenses are spectacularly good, and I can also use my P67 lenses on an adapter. I'll be fine with the Leica 35 & 70mm for most uses, and beyond that a few newer Pentax lenses like the 100/4 Macro and 200/4 will fill in.

 

So that's my story... Enjoy coming up with your own justifications!

[colonel]

 

So that's my story... Enjoy coming up with your own justifications!

 

I can't thing of one, d@mn it

 

I guess I'll have to with "life is short"

[GMB]

I'm just wondering what motivates S2 owners to sink such a large sum of cash into a camera that they do not use for their livelihood. Is it about image quality? Or having the best? Or is it something else?

 

I think it is precisely because I don't use it for making a livelihood that I got this camera, and not a DSLR that gets me to 80% of the quality and costs a fraction. I use the camera for fun. I enjoy operating it and I am super happy with the results (technically--my own shortcomings as a photographer set aside ).

 

I also find the camera extremely versatile (if light is good or you have a tripod). I have traveled with it to Africa, Asia, the US and across Europe.

 

My only complaint that I don’t have enough time to shoot with it--but that’s hardly the fault of the camera.

[philipus]

I also find the camera extremely versatile (if light is good or you have a tripod).

 

George, could you please elaborate on the above for me because, and I say this with respect and certainly not to offend, that doesn't sound very versatile, to me.

[Lax Jought]

I've never used the S2 (nor any other medium format camera) although I'd love one.

 

I have a potentially silly question though - is the S2 completely unuseable in manual focusing mode? Most of us here are presumably quite capable with manual focusing, in fact I prefer manual over autofocus. Would I be lost on manual with the S2?

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[erlingmm]

I've never used the S2 (nor any other medium format camera) although I'd love one.

 

I have a potentially silly question though - is the S2 completely unuseable in manual focusing mode? Most of us here are presumably quite capable with manual focusing, in fact I prefer manual over autofocus. Would I be lost on manual with the S2?

 

Not silly at all. S2 is fine with autofocus on objects that are not moving. Manual focus is fine, too, especially if you assign autofocus to the special button on your thumb on the back of the camera. This way you can autofocus momentarily with one push, and adjust manually afterwards. I have, however, ordered the Microprism focusing screen, part no 16001, which I think is even better than the standard screen for manual focusing.

[Dougg]

Yes, Lax... Further, all non-Leica lenses adapted to the S2 are manual-focus only since they don't support Leica's AF. However, even in this case, the focus confirmation light will still indicate when the camera thinks correct focus is achieved. And I think the stock focusing screen is fine even with wide f/4 lenses (e.g. 45 and 55mm f/4 Pentax67). So, manually focusing a fast S2 lens is somewhat easier...

Edited November 24, 2012 by Dougg