I tried the M with R adapter and EVF

[luigi bertolotti]

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While it would be premature to cancel my order on the basis of a rumor, if it really was the case that focus peaking ONLY worked with lenses on the list of lenses Leica has published, that would kill the M for me. One of my main interests is precisely that the M-240 has the potential to be a nearly perfect mirrorless fullframe camera. Range finder for wide to mid focal lengths, EVF for tele and macro. But no focus peaking on non-Leica glass would break the deal for me.

 

Indeed, it would be a significant limitation not to have the focus aid with, for instance, a Bellows II (though it needs anyway a ring/spacer to be mounted, and you'll be able to code it, supposed that coding solves definitely the issue)

[Jaybob]

and.......

 

At the Fuji booth I tried my rigid on the X-Pro1. 1200 dollars worth of dials and switches, and feeling about perfect in the hand in size and heft, and a fuji made Leica M to Fuji adapter (not sure if there's an R to Fuji)....It's not full frame, (again sideways from the NEX not as big a deal) but it is still a solid camera. No "in focus" glow like the NEX, but a zooming EVF (that you dont have to clip on) is a great help.

 

However, in the 20 minutes I was there, I saw a DR Summicron that didn't work on the Fuji adapter, and a 35 Summicron that wouldn't fully enage onto it as well.

 

I still WANT the M, but this is a pretty interesting alternative to a used M8 without the M8 issues.

[stuny]

As with Jaybob's experience, the folks in the booth seemed to know as much as I did about the M prototype -- Maybe there is a focus peaking button that I had on for the 50 but not on for the 85 -- the booth people didn't seem to know. Maybe the gent I was speaking with was wrong about the lenses needing to be listed in the firmware.

 

Definitely I found focusing with either lens very easy to do via the EVF without focus peaking.

 

Another citizen visiting the booth tried the camera with the R 85 and pronounced the camera was eaiser to focus with the camera's rangefinder, which I suspect would have been useless with an R lens. To me it sounded as though he was reacting as some of the people on the Forum do, damning the product without knowing what the final configuration will be.

 

Regardless of further developments I was satisfied enough that if the files are good enough and if I can afford one with adapter and EVF I will get one.

[Jaybob]

actually the Fuji sells for a bit more than I said, about $1700, plus $200 for the adapter, and $50 for an extra battery, or about the same as a less than mint conditon, very used M8 at October 2012 prices.

 

I didn't mind that the booth people were as new to the camera as I was. It shows just how under wraps this whole project has been, and apparently still is. It made it even cooler.

[iedei]

actually the Fuji sells for a bit more than I said, about $1700, plus $200 for the adapter, and $50 for an extra battery, or about the same as a less than mint conditon, very used M8 at October 2012 prices.

 

$2000 can get you a VERY nice M8.....in excellent condition.

[glenerrolrd]

I was at the booth on Thursday and also tried the EVF . The EVF would be very beneficial to my M kit because of the ability to use the 135APO M lens with some degree of focusing accuracy . I typically think about using M s for street shooting or travel photography . So I look hard at my ability to focus quickly and accurately .

 

For my applications ..the EVF is completely over sold . Her is a simple test . Try a 135 APO on the body with the EVF ..set the lens to f3.4 and focus on a subject about 30Ft away or farther . (If the subject is inside 30Ft ...I would just get closer with a shorter lens ) . The first thing you will notice is that the image is bouncing like you were holding a 400mm lens hand held . Next you will find that the focus peaking is flickering over a range that clearly exceed the focus plane . I tested the heck out of a Nex 7 with the 135 apo and found that it was hit or miss on focusing accuracy when shooting wide open. This appeared exactly the same .

 

Then we tried the 21/3.4asph as a test of the wide angle . At f5.6 focus peaking showed everything in focus . Wide open it was barely usable . Guess what focus peaking requires you focus wide open and then stop down. As to being able to see accurate focus on the screen with a wide angle ....good luck . Forget using the Zeiss 15/2.8 with EVF ...LV and loupe yes ..EVF no.

 

The EVF is very similar to using a Nex 7 and focus peaking. I found it great for using a fast 50 wide open . Actually amazing for low light interior shots of people . The 80 1.4 R is a great example of a usable combination with EVF . If you can shoot in a slower deliberate fashion ..you can of course use the magnified view or just go to LV but this isn t how I use the M or my R system .

 

My feeling is that you should carefully evaluate your shooting requirements and try the EVF when you can . There are clearly places that having an EVF would be valuable and depending on how you shoot maybe really beneficial . However As a long time R user ..its not even close to an R solution .

[Jaybob]

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I'm a LV/Hoodman Loupe Nex 5/Leitz lens user, with the 50 Summicron, 90 and 135 Elmarits.

 

Forgive me if this is too rudimentary...135 is just over a 200mm reach, NEXed. The loupe and eyecup make it easier to handhold steadier against your brow. My goggled 135 elmarit with the hoodman straped to the NEX, is pretty Franken, sort of scary looking actually, but still usable. Focus peaking on the Sony is user adaptable with three levels of sensitivity (high med and low) and different colors (red yellow or white) depending on what you're looking at it can react totally differently. You may find your results easier to deal with on a different sensitivity setting or color setting. I'm also a big believer in the zooming 7x and 14x MF assist, on any lens I have attatched. I got the ZOOM to work on the EVF attached to the M although I'm not sure how much steadying facial pressure I could apply to the hot shoed EVF with my eyebrow while focusing.

 

What I like about the Sony focus aid? You dont have to stop down to focus, because regardless of the f stop set on the lens, It's not only the front surface of what's in focus that glows, it's the entire depth of field. Say you have a 90 attached (effectively a 135 on a NEX), and have a group of runners coming at you. The idea of prefocusing on an one zone and waiting until the runners are there is great , but prefocusing on the ground where the runners will be will give you an exact representation of where your DOF at f4, f5.6, or whatever, will be. The ground will glow, (grass is great for this).

 

I am hopeful that the focus aid on the new camera works this way, but as I only have M lenses at this point, but that newfangled rangefinder connected to that CMOS is going to work JUST fine.

 

Jay

[gravastar]

........Another citizen visiting the booth tried the camera with the R 85 and pronounced the camera was eaiser to focus with the camera's rangefinder, which I suspect would have been useless with an R lens. To me it sounded as though he was reacting as some of the people on the Forum do, damning the product without knowing what the final configuration will be.......

 

In my original posting I had no intention of damming the camera, far from it. I merely wished to raise the visibility of limitations if focus peaking was restricted to certain lenses. Better to raise the issue now, before the product is finalised than after the event.

 

Bob.

[farnz]

... The electronic viewfinder is bright and clear, and with an R 85mm ...

Just curious, Stuart, but which lens are you referring to? In Leica R there's no 85 mm focal length lens that I can recall: 50 Summilux and Summicron, 80 Summilux, 90 Summicron and Elmarit, 28-90 Vario Elmarit, 80-170 Vario APO Elmarit, 80-200 Elmarit etc.

 

Pete.

[chris_tribble]

Try a 135 APO on the body with the EVF ..set the lens to f3.4 and focus on a subject about 30Ft away or farther . (If the subject is inside 30Ft ...I would just get closer with a shorter lens ) . The first thing you will notice is that the image is bouncing like you were holding a 400mm lens hand held . Next you will find that the focus peaking is flickering over a range that clearly exceed the focus plane .

 

Glen - you suggest we TRY your experiment - but unfortunately no many have the chance to do this with the M-240 . Are you saying that this is what you actually DID with the pre-production M-240 you were trying out? If yes, it's depressing. If you're commenting on your experience with another camera - it's a bit confusing - and maybe even a bit misleading?

 

I look forward to some solid evidence on this. I've spoken to the guy from Leica Mayfair (the one in the video) and his story doesn't tally with yours... Check around 4'20" here http://fstoppers.com/hands-on-with-the-new-leica-m-video-review-shows-all-the-bells-and-whistles-of-leicas-new-beauty He used the R 80-200 (the same I'm getting) and although he wasn't shooting a model 30 feet away, he was using a 200mm lens hand held + the EVF...

[k-hawinkler]

I am content waiting for a production M-240 and reviews based on it to show up - whenever that is.

There is no point worrying right now and making premature decisions.

[lct]

... In Leica R there's no 85 mm focal length lens that I can recall...

80, 75 (Elcan) or 90. 85 must be a typo.

[glenerrolrd]

Chris

 

I performed the tests as I outlined in my post .

[glenerrolrd]

Glen - you suggest we TRY your experiment - but unfortunately no many have the chance to do this with the M-240 . Are you saying that this is what you actually DID with the pre-production M-240 you were trying out? If yes, it's depressing. If you're commenting on your experience with another camera - it's a bit confusing - and maybe even a bit misleading?

 

I look forward to some solid evidence on this. I've spoken to the guy from Leica Mayfair (the one in the video) and his story doesn't tally with yours... Check around 4'20" here Hands On With The New Leica M: Video Review Shows All The Bells and Whistles Of Leica’s New Beauty | Fstoppers He used the R 80-200 (the same I'm getting) and although he wasn't shooting a model 30 feet away, he was using a 200mm lens hand held + the EVF...

 

Chris

 

Let me provide a little context . I shoot extensively with the M series (about 25K images/year ) primarily street and travel . One of the few limits of the M series has been the inability to use lenses longer than 90mm with any degree of focus accuracy . Having a 135 lens is important to my kit ..as its small and light enough to carry on trips . I am looking for reach (example Venice ) . I also have used every Leica R body since the first SL (had a DMR and now use an S2) .

 

To get the 135APO to perform ...I worked with DAG to calibrate both the body and the lens . Added correction lenses and the 1,4X magnifier . Then I shot tennis for a week to get my focusing technique down . The 135 APO has a very short throw at distances above 20ft .its darn hard to focus . Using a RF is a test of hand eye coordination and practicing makes a difference.

 

When the first reports of the NEX 7 and focusing peaking started to emerge ..I got an Nex 7 and spent a day shooting with the 135APO around the pier in Florida . While the NEX 7 was great with a 50/1.4asph it wasn t an improvement over the RF with the 135. I found the EVF to be unpleasant and the focusing accuracy to be hit and miss . This wasn t a casual test as I shot a few hundred photographs of surfers on the beach at distances typically from 50 -150 Ft as well as a number of close ups . I know I could get better with fine tuning and practice but the focus peaking just wasn t accurate enough .

 

So when I went to the Leica stand at Photo Plus ...I asked for the M with the EVF and the 135APO . I simply did a few focus tests at distances from 30-100ft away from the table . Same exact issues but of course I have no files to inspect . If you are happy with the NEX 7 you will be happy with the M ...I wasn t.

 

How can two users come to such different conclusions ? Easy we have different applications . Focus peaking works best when the DOF of the lens is shallow and you have an identifiable focus point that is large enough to see easily . The example with the 80-200 in studio is using a eye as the focus point and its easy to see due to the large magnification and shallow DOF . Using a 50/1.4 asph on a Nex 7 wide open was great ..using a 21/3.4asph on the M was not .

 

So what is a fair comparison ..how about the DMR with a 180APO . Compare the viewing and focusing to the M with EVF . I don t think they compare which is why I don t subscribe to the point of view that the M with an EVF is the "R" solution .

 

The EVF is a nice capability and I surely will use one ..but I will not be waiting on it to use my R telephotos ...its not a solution for me .

 

Your experience may be different and I am sure the EVF will be great addition for many M users with some R lenses . My POV is that its being OVERSOLD as a solution for R users .

[Einst_Stein]

Wow! A huge negative if that's also true of the production models. That could mean no focus peaking with third party lenses, Leica lenses not in the selection menu or older uncoded M lenses. Enough to make me cancel my pre-order.

 

 

Bob.

 

Good move. Thanks.

[Einst_Stein]

While it would be premature to cancel my order on the basis of a rumor, if it really was the case that focus peaking ONLY worked with lenses on the list of lenses Leica has published, that would kill the M for me. One of my main interests is precisely that the M-240 has the potential to be a nearly perfect mirrorless fullframe camera. Range finder for wide to mid focal lengths, EVF for tele and macro. But no focus peaking on non-Leica glass would break the deal for me.

 

I can't see the point to use non-Leica lenses on Leica M. Canon-L for example, is best used on Canon DSLR. You will not get the best out of Canon L without Canon's AF. Similar on Nikon top notch lenses.

 

I'm attempted by the idea of using R-lenses on M, but I'm also wondering how many lenses worth the trouble. The PC capable prime or super tele, yes, 35-70mm f2.8 yes, 70-180mm f2.8, yes, 35-70mm or 80-200mm f4, maybe. Anything else?

[chris_tribble]

I can't see the point to use non-Leica lenses on Leica M. Canon-L for example, is best used on Canon DSLR. You will not get the best out of Canon L without Canon's AF. Similar on Nikon top notch lenses.

 

I'm attempted by the idea of using R-lenses on M, but I'm also wondering how many lenses worth the trouble. The PC capable prime or super tele, yes, 35-70mm f2.8 yes, 70-180mm f2.8, yes, 35-70mm or 80-200mm f4, maybe. Anything else?

 

Hi - I'm not contemplating using EOS L lenses on the M-240 - clearly no point. What interests me is the possibility of using earlier manual FD lenses on an M so that when travelling I don't need to carry two systems. Clearly Roger's post re his dissatisfaction with the EVF on the M is a worry - but assuming that Leica do get this sorted out, the option of taking the R 80-200 f/4 on a trip RATHER than a 5D2 + 70-200 is very tempting. Even more tempting is the idea of having a Nikon or Zuiko 300 4.5 or Canon FD 300 L f4 in the case for occasional use rather than depending on the 5D2 + USM 300 f2.8 L (my other 300 option).

 

I had been thinking I might be able to get away with one system only, and to sell out of Canon, but I'm now moving to the idea of having 2 M-240s, my current range of M lenses (from 18 through to 135) + Viso adapter and bellows for macro + the 80-200 & a 300 as additional lenses + maybe a TS lens for architecture.

 

However IF the EVF is not effective with longer lenses OR if it doesn't allow focus peaking on non Leica glass, I'll have to think twice!

[jaapv]

Wow! A huge negative if that's also true of the production models. That could mean no focus peaking with third party lenses, Leica lenses not in the selection menu or older uncoded M lenses. Enough to make me cancel my pre-order.

 

 

Bob.

+1

[cbretteville]

Wow! A huge negative if that's also true of the production models. That could mean no focus peaking with third party lenses, Leica lenses not in the selection menu or older uncoded M lenses

 

+1

Carl

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[stuny]

Pete -

 

Yes, a typo. it was the 80mm they had on the camera, after the gent before me asked them to attach an R lens.