SD card information-education

[tobey bilek]

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https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/rangefinder-moment-podcast/id511195755

 

This is a tremendously informative podcast in interview format by someone who really knows what they are speaking about. It is perhaps 60 minutes and well worth a photographers time. HE owns a data recovery service.

 

For those who do not want to spend an hour, below is the Cliff Notes version

 

SDHC cards go to 32 gb only. After that they are SDXC, a new format called x fat or fat64. Put these in a Leica made for SDHC and you are asking for trouble. A windows computer will not format these to more than 32 GB so you wasted money. A mac will as it has no limitation on a FAT partition.

 

Cards up to 8 GB in general are single layer cards and are good for 100,000 write cycles.

16 GB are multilayer and card life is now reduced to 10,000 write cycles.

 

He recommends only formatting in the camera, never in the computer.

 

Never delete images, only reformat it deletion leads to fragmented files.

 

The issue with Leica card failures stems from people wanting to review images while the red led is blinking, ie data is being written to the card. The processor in camera is not robust enough to read and write at the same time and you will lose one or more images.

 

The camera may then go into a loop and to stop it, turn off camera, then remove battery to move it from sleep mode to off, then insert battery and start over.

 

The quality of many brands is off to way off. They buy substandard Nane chips that write data mostly. Sandisk makes their own and sells off the lower quality ones to somebody else and guess what they do with them.

 

Sandisk is his card of choice, with Lexar second. Third is way down the scale. I have always believed if you can afford pro Nikons and Leicas, don`t save money on cheap cards. Opinion upheld.

 

Lexar gets their chips from Micron and Intel. These are well known.

 

Listen to the iTunes Podcast for more details.

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[iedei]

interesting info....but a bit too much caution being advised here IMO. there's nothing wrong with deleting photos in the camera or formatting an SD card in the computer. I've been doing this for many, many years with no issues whatsoever.....

 

the deleting while the red flash is blinking is an interesting theory, I must say....but sounds more like a theory. has anybody confirmed that the camera is actually attempting to do both things at once? most electronics are not built to 'multitask' like that....so I am skeptical!

 

thanks for the interesting thoughts...

[tobey bilek]

If you were to listen to the podcast, you will hear why you format in camera and not computer. He went too fast for me to get good notes.

 

Many things work ok but are incorrect procedures in computerland. Then one day the stars line up and disaster.

 

His business is data recovery and he knows how things work, why they work or don`t work, and how not to abuse them.

 

I had a discussion with Lexar some time back. I was told to format in the camera and very occasionally in the computer AND THEN REPEAT THE REFORMAT IN THE CAMERA.

[01af]

He recommends only formatting in the camera, never in the computer. Never delete images, only reformat it; deletion leads to fragmented files.

That's what I keep saying (but people won't listen). It also is the reason why I cannot understand why camera makers don't stop providing digital cameras with Delete buttons. So many cameras have so many vital functions buried deep down in menus ... but a Delete button is never missing.

 

Even the new Leica M will sport this pointless Delete button again

[gyoung]

Ever since I have been using these things in computing its always been the case with reuseable media (from floppy disks on) that its best to format in the device you are going to use it in, and to regularly reformat rather than just delete.

File fragmentation does not seem to be a problem so much with x terrabyte HDs, but with small capacity (relatively) media its bound to rear its ugly head eventually

 

Gerry

[lct]

(…) He recommends only formatting in the camera, never in the computer. (…) Sandisk is his card of choice (…)

Can't seem to read the podcast on my MBair here but this advice sounds a bit curious given the problems of Sandisk cards with the M9. As for formatting, the SD Association recommends a little freeware prog named "SDFormatter" which works perfectly for me so far. I don't own an M9 though.

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_3/

[tobey bilek]

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You may have trouble formating a sd if it is too large or to high a speed . Leica electronics are crude and old fashioned and we must accept it.

 

My Nikons never do the funky stuff Leicas do, but it like marriage, for better or worse, we love them.

[robert blu]

I will go to the podcast tomorrow, when less tired. For now I have learned not to delete photo in camera (what I sometimes did). I always format in camera, by the way it is easier, IMHO.

Thanks for the infos.

robert

[lct]

As for formatting, the SD Association recommends a little freeware prog named "SDFormatter" which works perfectly for me so far.

https://www.sdcard.org/downloads/formatter_3/

Correction: Just got a "full card" warning after an overwrite format with SDFormatter. Did fix it in a snap with Apple's Disk Utility but i would have needed another card if i had no laptop with me then.

[sblitz]

Interesting. Thanks for posting. I use Hoodman and have had no problems.

 

one thing to recognize is that the memory in these cards are essentially held together by energy it is not written into to a media. Overtime the charge diminishes and the files saved on disk will go away. A poster here mentioned it and when I went over to the Hoodman booth at the pdnphotoplus show in ny they confirmed it......charge holds for 5 or so years. It is not like saving a negative.

[Ernstk]

Could someone clarify for me please:

 

What's the recommended way to delete images from the SD card, either when it's full or when you've uploaded them to the PC? Normally, I choose the Windows option of 'delete files after upload'

 

Is this the recommended way to do it?

 

Thanks

Ernst

[gyoung]

My procedure is to download the files to the PC, back them up to an external hard drive (after weeding some rubbish out ) and then simply format the SD card in the camera.

 

Gerry

[jaapv]

Could someone clarify for me please:

 

What's the recommended way to delete images from the SD card, either when it's full or when you've uploaded them to the PC? Normally, I choose the Windows option of 'delete files after upload'

 

Is this the recommended way to do it?

 

Thanks

Ernst

No. First lock the card, upload through a card reader, back up the files, check the files in your computer, unlock the card and format in the camera.

[peter_n]

I use the camera's USB port to plug the camera into the computer where it just looks like another drive. Then I cut'n'paste from the SD card to the hard disk.

 

I've always formatted my cards in the computer and never had a problem. I very rarely format my cards.

[sblitz]

I do all deleting and formation etc in the camera. Never had a problem

[pico]

[...]one thing to recognize is that the memory in these cards are essentially held together by energy it is not written into to a media. Overtime the charge diminishes and the files saved on disk will go away. A poster here mentioned it and when I went over to the Hoodman booth at the pdnphotoplus show in ny they confirmed it......charge holds for 5 or so years. [...]

 

I'm afraid that is incorrect. Nobody is concerned with failure due to the age of SD cards. The actual concern is number of writes to the media, and number of bad blocks. Ours will last the around 27 years before wearing out (number of writes of about 100,000 at this time) or when the bad block allocation table fills or reaches the vendor's tolerance.

 

That is assuming no errors caused by bad management by the camera or reader, or computer that accommodates the card, and no physical damage to the card, and clearly there are problems with Leicas and there is no accounting for nonstandard computer software.

 

Most cards that last through 1,000 writes will last to their ultimate wear-out, 100,000 which is years of use as just mentioned.

 

aside: the 'speed' shown on most cards is not the write speed. It is the read rate, which is faster than writing .... but then again, Leica's (pre M) camera is so slow to read and write that it makes no difference to the rest of us.

[sblitz]

Actually you are wrong, the charge dissapates over time and with it the stored info goes too.now because of your post I went and checked and some sites said thhat if you put it into camera evey few years the charge gets a boost. Also sandisk makes a unit to save photos etc for 100 years or so they say but it is not s card for the camera but a unit to transfer files from computer to their memory vault.

[pico]

Actually you are wrong, the charge dissapates over time and with it the stored info goes too.now because of your post I went and checked and some sites said thhat if you put it into camera evey few years the charge gets a boost. Also sandisk makes a unit to save photos etc for 100 years or so they say but it is not s card for the camera but a unit to transfer files from computer to their memory vault.

 

We disagree. Let us check again in 27 years. I will be 94 years-old. My bio-memory will likely be challenged by then.

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[sblitz]

..... That's a deal!!!!!

 

In the meantime here is something out of wikipedia which was essentially what the hoodman reps told me at the photo show and others have mentioned here and there on the forum. To be clear, I am making my point not to prove anyone right or wrong but because I think is very important that all of us on this forum should know what SD cards are and are not when it comes to archival storage. If anyone from Sandisk or wherever wants to chime in on this, please do, this is about getting it right as opposed to being right --

 

"Bit rot is often defined as the event in which the small electric charge of a bit in memory disperses, possibly altering program code.

 

Bit rot can also be used to describe the phenomenon of data stored in EPROMs and flash memory gradually decaying over the duration of many years, or in the decay of data stored on CD or DVD discs or other types of consumer storage.

 

The cause of bit rot varies depending on the medium. EPROMs and flash memory store data using electrical charges, which can slowly leak away due to imperfect insulation. The chip itself is not affected by this, so re-programming it once per decade or so will prevent the bit rot. The biggest problem can be finding a clean copy of the chip to make the copy from; frequently by the time the user discovers the bit rot there are no un-damaged chips to use as a master."

 

Best,

Steve

[k-hawinkler]

A manufacturer can also build-in smarts to deal with bit rot.

For example: Panasonic 8GB SDHC Memory Card Class 10 UHS-I RPSDB08GB1K B&H

You would have to read or check the card occasionally with their checking software.