I have some doubts about the repair of my M9.

[Paulus]

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During the last weeks, my M9 is in Solms and will be " remapped ".

 

I the past, I never had any doubts, that my M camera would be in perfect shape after a repair. I was right all the time. My M6 titan had a new shutter and a new rewind knob+ new electronics because the battery was drained in a day.Worked great for years. My MP was repaired, I even forgot why, worked great for years. My M6 traveller was repaired because the shutter was stuck, worked great for years. My M6ttl 0,58 never had a problem, My MP 0,85 a la carte never had a problem.

 

I don't know why, but with this electronic sensor, I am really worried, that problems will occur again in the future and things I've read about it, don't comfort me at all. I even am thinking about selling the camera, because I don't know if I can trust it in the future and don't know how much I will have to pay for repairs in the future. Up to now all repairs were in the guaranty period.

 

I know things will break down in a camera which is often used, but the film cameras I had and have were repaired " as new" . I have doubt that the M9 will be repaired " as new " and will maintain working for years.

 

Are there others who have the same worries?

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[tobey bilek]

Agreed.

 

This dead pixel thing is pretty bad. Other cameras can be remapped by owner. Leica should step up.

[colonel]

During the last weeks, my M9 is in Solms and will be " remapped ".

 

I the past, I never had any doubts, that my M camera would be in perfect shape after a repair. I was right all the time. My M6 titan had a new shutter and a new rewind knob+ new electronics because the battery was drained in a day.Worked great for years. My MP was repaired, I even forgot why, worked great for years. My M6 traveller was repaired because the shutter was stuck, worked great for years. My M6ttl 0,58 never had a problem, My MP 0,85 a la carte never had a problem.

 

I don't know why, but with this electronic sensor, I am really worried, that problems will occur again in the future and things I've read about it, don't comfort me at all. I even am thinking about selling the camera, because I don't know if I can trust it in the future and don't know how much I will have to pay for repairs in the future. Up to now all repairs were in the guaranty period.

 

I know things will break down in a camera which is often used, but the film cameras I had and have were repaired " as new" . I have doubt that the M9 will be repaired " as new " and will maintain working for years.

 

Are there others who have the same worries?

 

No

Digital is very reliable

Remapping implies hot or dead pixels. This is normal and just a software data fix, no hardware will be changed

[250swb]

Yes, Olympus for example offer pixel mapping in the camera menu of their higher end models. It doesn't take any time at all to get rid of hot pixels. It may be hoped that they give the camera a check over at the same time and clean it out etc., but it is a great shame to have it at Solms when other manufacturers would rather you carry on photographing as soon as possible.

 

Steve

[Paulus]

Yes, Olympus for example offer pixel mapping in the camera menu of their higher end models. It doesn't take any time at all to get rid of hot pixels. It may be hoped that they give the camera a check over at the same time and clean it out etc., but it is a great shame to have it at Solms when other manufacturers would rather you carry on photographing as soon as possible.

 

Steve

 

In my case a "check over at the same time and clean it out" was totally unnessesary, because the camera was in Solms for a check up three months earlier.It took them about six weeks to get that job done. I shure don't hope it will take the same amount of time. The camera is already a month away.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Paulus

[Indina]

Paulus, I agree that this is annoying!

In general I'm afraid that no digital device will be 'future safe', much different than your analog experiences. Its components may last for a few years, then they're either outdated or broken. No matter which brand nor marketing blabla.

[Thomv]

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A month is indeed a long time, did you ship it via a dealer or direct? I suggest you contact customer service to tell them you'd like to have it back before our November meeting in Arnhem .

Greetz

 

Thom

[Paulus]

A month is indeed a long time, did you ship it via a dealer or direct? I suggest you contact customer service to tell them you'd like to have it back before our November meeting in Arnhem .

Greetz

 

Thom

 

Sent to my dealer and he send it to Solms. I contacted Solms a week ago , they said they would hurry.....

 

About Arnhem, I could take my MP?

[Hookeye]

Surely, automatic remapping could relatively easily be built into the camera firmware. I mean, if the same pixel sends off the same data on a number of consecutive, but clearly different (e.g determined by a differing histogram) pictures it should automatically be given the average value of those surrounding it. If after that it starts working again, well then just give it another chance etc...

 

Or am I totally off my onions here?

[jaapv]

There is ample evidence that hot pixels are caused by outside influence, i.e high-energy cosmic radiation. This comes in vertically. So storing the camera vertically especially when flying should minimize the risk of pixel damage by target reduction. I know it proves nothing, but I happen to keep my cameras vertical when not in use and I have never seen a dead pixel yet in six years of M over four different ones, nor on any other digicam in over a decade.

[Paulus]

There is ample evidence that hot pixels are caused by outside influence, i.e high-energy cosmic radiation. This comes in vertically. So storing the camera vertically especially when flying should minimize the risk of pixel damage by target reduction. I know it proves nothing, but I happen to keep my cameras vertical when not in use and I have never seen a dead pixel yet in six years of M over four different ones, nor on any other digicam in over a decade.

 

I always vertically store my camera on its bottomplate if its not in use, by placing it on a shelf in the shadow with it's lens to the north. I did this with my M8 also, had the M8 for 3 years before replacing it by the M9. The M8 never suffered from dead pixtel. You are saying that it never happened to you. Do you think I store in the wrong way? I have flown only one time for only one hour and not over the North or Southpole the last 20 years.

 

I think I was behaving quite well in taking care of this camera. I have a few kilos of lead lying around. I could place them around the camera when I store it, but isn't this a little bit to much effort.

 

You say it never happened to you Jaap. Could it be that you were just a little bit lucky, or that your camera's are also an accident waiting to happen?

 

Or.. could the camera have been effected by other radiation like wi-fi, cell-phone radiation or inside house wireless telephone radiation, stereo - boxes radiation

[bill]

I always vertically store my camera on its bottomplate if its not in use, by placing it on a shelf in the shadow with it's lens to the north. ...

 

I never thought I would see Feng Shui applied to camera storage...

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

Sent from another Galaxy

[wattsy]

I have a few kilos of lead lying around. I could place them around the camera when I store it, but isn't this a little bit to much effort.

 

It wouldn't make a difference. You need to think about storing your camera down a very deep mine shaft if you want to avoid cosmic radiation.

[jaapv]

No- that kind of radiation is harmless. It needs a high-energy particle to kill a pixel. Just think in surfaces. The chances of hitting your sensor are minimized by keeping it edge-on to the direction of the radiation. Of course it is statistics aka luck.As Ian said, lead won't help. All sensors are affected btw, according to scientific literature.

I always vertically store my camera on its bottomplate if its not in use, by placing it on a shelf in the shadow with it's lens to the north. I did this with my M8 also, had the M8 for 3 years before replacing it by the M9. The M8 never suffered from dead pixtel. You are saying that it never happened to you. Do you think I store in the wrong way? I have flown only one time for only one hour and not over the North or Southpole the last 20 years.

 

I think I was behaving quite well in taking care of this camera. I have a few kilos of lead lying around. I could place them around the camera when I store it, but isn't this a little bit to much effort.

 

You say it never happened to you Jaap. Could it be that you were just a little bit lucky, or that your camera's are also an accident waiting to happen?

 

Or.. could the camera have been effected by other radiation like wi-fi, cell-phone radiation or inside house wireless telephone radiation, stereo - boxes radiation

[colonel]

There is ample evidence that hot pixels are caused by outside influence, i.e high-energy cosmic radiation. This comes in vertically. So storing the camera vertically especially when flying should minimize the risk of pixel damage by target reduction. I know it proves nothing, but I happen to keep my cameras vertical when not in use and I have never seen a dead pixel yet in six years of M over four different ones, nor on any other digicam in over a decade.

 

could you send links to any of this evidence ?

 

I find this hard to believe

 

Faulty pixels are merely ones that are imperfectly made during the manufacturing process. The fact that they might show themselves years after the sensor manufacture is irrelevant as the cell could decay to an unworkable state due to the local flow of electrons (electricity from the camera battery), far more powerful then the strongest of cosmic radiation

 

BTW 99% of sensors have hot/dead pixels on manufacture. Each manufacturere has a tolerance for throwing them out. The rest are mapped out in software on manufacture, including in Teledyne.

Its just that Leica has no software in the camera to map them out post-production, other manufacturers do.

[wattsy]

All sensors are affected btw, according to scientific literature.

 

Your theory about vertical storage is interesting and seems logical (if it is true that cosmic radiation arrives perpendicular to the Earth). However, your point about it affecting "all sensors" doesn't address the OP's concern – ie. whether Leica's policy of requiring owners to return their camera to the factory for remapping is the best way of dealing with the problem. Some manufacturers presumably include some kind of auto-detection/remapping routine within the camera firmware and some others provide the user with the facility to manually map out bad pixels. I tend to agree that having to return the camera each time is far from ideal but, fortunately (and touch wood, etc.) it is not a problem I've had to deal with myself. Maybe it's because I also store my camera vertically?

[Paulus]

could you send links to any of this evidence ?

 

I find this hard to believe

 

Faulty pixels are merely ones that are imperfectly made during the manufacturing process. The fact that they might show themselves years after the sensor manufacture is irrelevant as the cell could decay to an unworkable state due to the local flow of electrons (electricity from the camera battery), far more powerful then the strongest of cosmic radiation

 

BTW 99% of sensors have hot/dead pixels on manufacture. Each manufacturere has a tolerance for throwing them out. The rest are mapped out in software on manufacture, including in Teledyne.

Its just that Leica has no software in the camera to map them out post-production, other manufacturers do.

 

 

Are you saying that you can wait until the fault will appear? In perfect sensors, the thing will not appear, but in the imperfect ones it's just a question of use, like for instance a car tire? Some tires explode in use, others not? The luck is in the wrong or right lucky choice?

[Paulus]

No- that kind of radiation is harmless. It needs a high-energy particle to kill a pixel. Just think in surfaces. The chances of hitting your sensor are minimized by keeping it edge-on to the direction of the radiation. Of course it is statistics aka luck.As Ian said, lead won't help. All sensors are affected btw, according to scientific literature.

 

 

All sensors? Even CMOS. I am just thinking. Why aren't my D700 and D 3 Nikons not affected? My M9 has over 10.000 shots, but my Nikons have had over 50.000 shots

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

luck?

[colonel]

Are you saying that you can wait until the fault will appear? In perfect sensors, the thing will not appear, but in the imperfect ones it's just a question of use, like for instance a car tire? Some tires explode in use, others not? The luck is in the wrong or right lucky choice?

 

Correct, its luck baby!

 

no sensor is perfect

 

most will develop faulty pixels over time

its just in Canikon you (the user) would never notice

 

Interestingly Lightroom, since version 3.5 (I think), auto-maps out faulty pixels if it detects them. This is why you often see dpreview posts were people complain that they could see faulty pixels on the camera LCD but not on their PC