Leica Lens Serial numbers

[mikebidwell]

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I'm feeling as though I must be going senile, I've just been trying to find out some information on a Leitz lens. It was manufactured in Germany and it's Serial number is :3430489. Its a Tele-Elmarit - M 1:2.8 / 90mm.

 

What is confusing me is that having looked at the serial numbers list compiled from the 'Puts Pocket Pod' it shows as a different lens.

 

Forgive my ignorance but what am I doing wrong to get this information???

 

Best wishes

 

Mike

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[Fgcm]

Maybe the mistake is in Putt's book.

Franco

[mmradman]

Serial numbers are not always fully accounted for. My R APO Elmarit 180mm lens has S/N that eludes all known lists that I visited but i am happy as image quality would be pretty much difficult to fake

 

Regarding your T-E 90mm some information http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Tele-Elmarit-M, your S/N seems to be listed.

[mikebidwell]

Serial numbers are not always fully accounted for. My R APO Elmarit 180mm lens has S/N that eludes all known lists that I visited but i am happy as image quality would be pretty much difficult to fake

 

Regarding your T-E 90mm some information http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/90mm_f/2.8_Tele-Elmarit-M, your S/N seems to be listed.

 

Thanks for that information however having looked at the list you mention the S/N I have would seem to fall within the numbers: 3429891 to 3433000 and refer to an Elmarit-R 28mm f/2.8 with the exception of two Lens 2728702 & 3430058 which are Tele-Elmarit-M 2.8 / 90 (ELC.black)

Its a bit of a mystery???

 

Regards

 

Mike

[lct]

Leicawiki's serial numbers are compiled from the Puts Pocket Pod but Erwin Puts is probably not the only culprit here as Leica's serial numbers are not always chosen with the strictest rationality.

[luigi bertolotti]

Thanks for that information however having looked at the list you mention the S/N I have would seem to fall within the numbers: 3429891 to 3433000 and refer to an Elmarit-R 28mm f/2.8 with the exception of two Lens 2728702 & 3430058 which are Tele-Elmarit-M 2.8 / 90 (ELC.black)

Its a bit of a mystery???

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

The fact that in that batch of s/n AT LEAST a pair of TE 90 are reported is revealing... I think that yours is simply a third one (and this, if you like, can be added to the Wiki page) , and maybe others do exist too in that range. Not a strange event... another quick example:

 

<Wiki - Puts>

 

135mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M II Serial Numbers

 

2063501 *2065500 35mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R 1964

 

.* Lens nos. 2064146, 2064302, 2064679, 2326149 are Elmarit-M 11829 2.8/135mm

 

...And I have a 2,8/135 Elmarit-M 2.063.783

Edited October 20, 2012 by luigi bertolotti

[otto.f]

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This site gives 1987:

 

Summilux - Num

[mikebidwell]

The fact that in that batch of s/n AT LEAST a pair of TE 90 are reported is revealing... I think that yours is simply a third one (and this, if you like, can be added to the Wiki page) , and maybe others do exist too in that range. Not a strange event... another quick example:

 

<Wiki - Puts>

 

135mm f/2.8 Elmarit-M II Serial Numbers

 

2063501 *2065500 35mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R 1964

 

.* Lens nos. 2064146, 2064302, 2064679, 2326149 are Elmarit-M 11829 2.8/135mm

 

...And I have a 2,8/135 Elmarit-M 2.063.783

 

Hi Luigi, Its been a long while since we corresponded, I hope you are keeping well??

 

Thanks for that information and what you say makes sense. I don't know what made me even check it out in the first place, after all I knew that the lens was made in 1987 but the thought that the serial number put it into an entirely different lens range never crossed my mind. Following on from your suggestion how do I go about recording my lens / serial number with the other 2 T/E 90's already recorded please.

 

Best wishes

 

Mike

[ayewing]

There seem to be discrepancies in the published information. I have a German made Tele Elmarit 90mm serial number 3378813 which according to the Leica Pocket list was made in 1985. The Leica Wiki states that they were made in Canada till 1986.

[01af]

... serial number 3378813 which according to the Leica Pocket list was made in 1985.

I think the serial number lists don't tell us when a lens was made. Instead, they just say when a serial number range was reserved and assigned to an upcoming batch of lenses to produce. The actual manufacture of the lenses might have happened weeks or months or years later. I guess in most cases, the year when the serial number was reserved also is the year when the respective lens was made ... but not always and necessarily so. In particular, the '80s were pretty chaotic times for Leitz/Leica, with the Leitz family selling the company, the company becoming split into three parts, selling the Midland plant in Canada, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised when the production of a batch of lenses got delayed by one or two years.

[mikebidwell]

There seem to be discrepancies in the published information. I have a German made Tele Elmarit 90mm serial number 3378813 which according to the Leica Pocket list was made in 1985. The Leica Wiki states that they were made in Canada till 1986.

 

It seems to me that the Puts Pocket Pod does have some discrepancies in it, but in fairness to Erwin Puts he does qualify it saying there could well be inaccuracies. You will see I have a similar query regarding the validity of my serial number (1987 build) against the model of lens it is listed against.

 

We may well have uncovered a can of worms here or it may all have a very simple explanation

[mikebidwell]

I think the serial number lists don't tell us when a lens was made. Instead, they just say when a serial number range was reserved and assigned to an upcoming batch of lenses to produce. The actual manufacture of the lenses might have happened weeks or months or years later. I guess in most cases, the year when the serial number was reserved also is the year when the respective lens was made ... but not always and necessarily so. In particular, the '80s were pretty chaotic times for Leitz/Leica, with the Leitz family selling the company, the company becoming split into three parts, selling the Midland plant in Canada, etc. So I wouldn't be surprised when the production of a batch of lenses got delayed by one or two years.

 

A very interesting analogy and one on which you might well be right. However most of my working life was spent in the engineering industry in a 'Quality Dept' anda lot of our work was for the MoD. In the first instance what was paramount then in determining an items traceability was the accurate recording of its serial number at the time of its manufacture. Otherwise why bother

 

Regards

 

Mike:)

[01af]

In the first instance what was paramount then in determining an items traceability was the accurate recording of its serial number at the time of its manufacture. Otherwise why bother?

Sure. But I guess when someone at Leica Camera wants to track down the exact date of manufacture of a given lens then he won't look it up in Erwin Puts' Leica Pocket Book.

 

I guess the dates when serial number ranges got reserved are easier to get than individual lenses' manufacturing dates, especially for someone outside the company. After all, there's always one date per serial number range but many dates for the individual lenses. That's why I assume that a) the published tables contain the dates of assignment rather than dates of actual manufacture, and this is the reason (or one of the reasons) for the occasional inaccuracies.

 

But then, I could be wrong. Just speculating; no insider information here.

[wizard]

Olaf is correct, Leitz/Leica lens serial numbers often do not allow to specify the year of manufacture. Two examples to prove this statement:

 

1) I own a 3-element Elmar 90mm lens which according to its serial number was produced in 1962. However, this lens was only released in 1964!

 

2) When Leica sold the millennium edition M6 TTL, there where special edition black paint lenses accompanying that camera. Those lenses, in the year 2000 or 2001, all had serial numbers above 4,000,000! Regular lenses at that time had serial numbers around 3,890,000, and it took Leica several more years until their regular lenses went past the mark of 4,000,000.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[mikebidwell]

Olaf is correct, Leitz/Leica lens serial numbers often do not allow to specify the year of manufacture. Two examples to prove this statement:

 

1) I own a 3-element Elmar 90mm lens which according to its serial number was produced in 1962. However, this lens was only released in 1964!

 

2) When Leica sold the millennium edition M6 TTL, there where special edition black paint lenses accompanying that camera. Those lenses, in the year 2000 or 2001, all had serial numbers above 4,000,000! Regular lenses at that time had serial numbers around 3,890,000, and it took Leica several more years until their regular lenses went past the mark of 4,000,000.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

 

Andy what ever is said won't change the way the serial number system works, That seems to be the quaint way Leica works so thats it. My contention though is that I have a particular type of lens with a serial number which appears within a block of serial numbers showing it to be a different type of lens but all issued in 1987. How can that be explained away??

 

Regards

 

Mike

Edited October 23, 2012 by mikebidwell

[tdavis]

Hi Mike,

Sorry, it took me awhile to see your thread regarding lens serial no. in "wrong" batch. Your lens makes at least 3 in that group - my guess is there are more. I've added yours on page 90mm f/2.8 Tele-Elmarit-M. Many known lenses are listed in "wrong" batch - when found I try to list them with *footnote. Many guard their numbers closely to provide a challenge.

 

Always happy to add to the Leitz /Leica saga.

Regards,

Tim

[jaapv]

About Erwin, he had access to the factory records when compiling his lists. But the factory records are handwritten with numbers stricken through, reassigned, missing, written in etc. and the manufacturing lists do not always tally with the sales lists. Indeed the system was to allot a batch of numbers, but some numbers were never used or used at a much later date or for a different lens. In general the given numbers are correct, but discrepancies are not uncommon.

[mikebidwell]

Hi Mike,

Sorry, it took me awhile to see your thread regarding lens serial no. in "wrong" batch. Your lens makes at least 3 in that group - my guess is there are more. I've added yours on page 90mm f/2.8 Tele-Elmarit-M. Many known lenses are listed in "wrong" batch - when found I try to list them with *footnote. Many guard their numbers closely to provide a challenge.

 

Always happy to add to the Leitz /Leica saga.

Regards,

Tim

 

Hi Tim, really this is just to say thanks for making the amendment to the Wiki reflecting my T/E serial number being placed in with the wrong lens & batch, its much appreciated.

 

I beleive if records are to be kept then its important to have them recorded accurately or why bother to have them recorded at all. Its good you are there and take the time to do this.

 

Best wishes

 

Mike

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Hallo,

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