jaapv Posted March 20, 2007 Share #61 Posted March 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, Howard, I'm sure there are differences between different countries regarding customer protection, and indeed in my country and most European country the ball would be firmly in the playing field of the retailer, but I feel it is wrong to turn this into a legal issue. A reasonably customer oriented shop should pick this up and handle the hassle for the customer. In my experience with the reputed Leica dealers that is what happens and I am really surprised that Adorama puts the burden of any registration and warranty technicalities, -understandable as they may be, and I quite see your point there- on the buyer. They should simply take the camera, tell the customer, here is your money, Sir, and that is the end of it as far as you are concerned. That is the way I treat my customers (patients) when my lab or supplier screws up, and I do the screaming at the person responsible myself. I would expect to be treated the same way by a dealer I trust. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 20, 2007 Posted March 20, 2007 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Marks on brand new M8 lensmount normal?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
rob_x2004 Posted March 20, 2007 Share #62 Posted March 20, 2007 Rob--Let's not worry about a year from now. No dealer takes a $5000 camera back from a customer and leaves it on his shelf for a year. He'll sell it or have it fixed and then sell it. YES I am worried about a year from now, that is the point. Simon is sorted and that is great. But, remember probably only a sizable fraction of new owners are not internet savy and dont log on here. They basically get shanked unless they understand cameras and what is acceptable or not. I cant see many dealers contacting new buyers and saying listen we need to get your camera back. Some of those cameras will recirculate too, trapping more unsuspecting types like Simon. There is a duty of care owed by someone. If I was Andorama I would be in the managers car picking the thing up. And if I was Leica... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #63 Posted March 20, 2007 HC: Thanks for the tip—I'll call Leica Customer Service again tomorrow (already closed today—I called and left a message). I agree that there must be a cooperation between the three involved parties, the maker, the seller, and the purchaser, and I am doing my best to do my part. Here's the letter I am sending to Adorama along with the camera return package: ---------- March 19, 2007 Adorama Camera Order Processing 7 Slater Drive Elizabeth, NJ, 07206 Hello, I am returning this Leica M8 serial number 3107669 since it was not new when I received it. Faults detected with the help of the people in the Leica Camera User Forum made it clear that this is not a new camera. This helped to explain the poor condition of the lens mount and back focus problems I had with the camera when attempting to use it. You can find detailed information about all of this in the following Leica Camera User Forum thread: http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/19165-marks-brand-new-m8-lensmount-normal.html I am attaching photographs of the visible problems with the camera to this letter as well as the original invoice for $4,795.00. I am also attaching a copy of the letter I have sent to Christian Erhardt, Marketing Manager of Leica Camera Inc., informing him of my desire to revoke my warranty registration, which I had sent to Leica prior to detecting the camera’s problems and condition. I would like a full refund of the amount of $4,795.00 made to my bank account as soon as possible. I have spent a lot of time and gone through a lot of trouble after spending almost five thousand dollars on a priorly-used, defective camera. Please be more careful about the M8s you sell in the future. Sincerely yours, Simon Griffee ---------- If all works out, I won't be poor anymore, at least until I get a good M8! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 20, 2007 Share #64 Posted March 20, 2007 Jaap-- I agree 100%. That is the way any reputable dealer would behave. I know one US dealer, not a mail-order/internet supplier, but a "Mom & Pop" shop which dealt one-on-one with its customers, who got into exactly this kind of problem. Customer registered the camera, then returned it for some reason. Dealer took it back because "the customer is always right" and because the customer is worth future business. When someone else looked at the camera, bought it, took it home, and the next day complained that it didn't have a warranty card, the dealer looked him in the eye and said, "I am your warranty." That worked because of the dealer's reputation for being fair and honest. I think there's unfortunately a lot more of that kind of support in Europe than in the US. That's why our laws have arisen to "protect" the customer from unscrupulous dealers. HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 20, 2007 Share #65 Posted March 20, 2007 If all works out, I won't be poor anymore, at least until I get a good M8! Wait a minute now. Remember, you'll need to get a second one as backup! Seriously, I think you're well on the way to a successful conclusion. Adorama needs to keep its reputation clean, and Leica needs to be sure you are satisfied. I'm probably being much more finicky than necessary, but I am a nit-picky kind of guy. I've worked for several dealers and I've worked for Leica, and of course I've also bought a fair amount of photo equipment myself; so I may have a little more empathy for all the parties than is necessary. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 20, 2007 Share #66 Posted March 20, 2007 ... remember probably only a sizable fraction of new owners are not internet savy and dont log on here. They basically get shanked unless they understand cameras and what is acceptable or not. I cant see many dealers contacting new buyers and saying listen we need to get your camera back. Some of those cameras will recirculate too.... Rob-- Good points. I hadn't thought of the matter in those terms. Remember, Leica is contacting all M8 owners with invitations to find out about their cameras at Leica seminars. And a storefront dealer will raise the subject with the customer next time s/he comes in. (That is, after all, how you keep a customer.) But it's possible some M8s from unrepaired batch one will turn up used in a couple years. On the other hand, there are people who are getting good results from the original cameras today who are posting their work on this forum, so the issue may not be that big in practice. So: 1) You are correct, there is a potential for future problems, and I'm glad you pointed it out. 2) However, and though you may disagree, I think most of the problems will be straightened out before they become problems. Strictly my opinion. Respectfully, --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #67 Posted March 20, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) HC: It is people with your attitude that make the internet, and the world, and better place. I thank you for your advice, nit-pickyness and good cheer! I'm quite certain I'll be singing both Adorama and Leica's praises soon when the situation is resolved and I find another M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob_x2004 Posted March 20, 2007 Share #68 Posted March 20, 2007 Simon I am sure you will find out it is a stunning camera. Post heaps at photo forum and let us see how you get on with it. Regards Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #69 Posted March 20, 2007 Rob: I certainly plan to, hopefully very soon—thanks for the comments! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sirvine Posted March 20, 2007 Share #70 Posted March 20, 2007 I'd leave the last two sentences off the letter. Adorama redeemed themselves well, it seems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_l Posted March 20, 2007 Share #71 Posted March 20, 2007 By the way, that warranty card thing is pretty standard - my dealer tells me repeatedly never to send the card in until I'm sure I've got a keeper.... Also, Adorama, and even B&H, have been known to resell returned items - people report that regularly - they just close up the box and resell (perhaps without even looking closely at the item) - why do you think they specify "like new with all packaging materials" as part of their return policy? They shouldn't do it, but they do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted March 20, 2007 Share #72 Posted March 20, 2007 By the way, that warranty card thing is pretty standard - my dealer tells me repeatedly never to send the card in until I'm sure I've got a keeper.... Also, Adorama, and even B&H, have been known to resell returned items - people report that regularly - they just close up the box and resell (perhaps without even looking closely at the item) - why do you think they specify "like new with all packaging materials" as part of their return policy? They shouldn't do it, but they do. Well I think, no I'm sure, B&H also specifies that there can not be more then 200 shutter actuation for a full refund. I'm not trying to say that B&H does not sell returned LIKE NEW items as new but they do try to take the time to check them out. No I don't work for B&H. I have always had great service from them and also from Adorama. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #73 Posted March 20, 2007 Update: I've called Leica Support and they called me back today. I explained the situation to the registrations department and they confirmed they have not yet come across my registration as they're backed up several weeks. They flagged my name and the serial number of my camera so it will not be registered once they come across it. I was then transferred to Christian Erhardt's secretary and left a voice-mail on her phone alerting her to the arrival of my letter detailing the situation. In addition, yesterday I replied to an email from M8 support which had confirmed my ordering of the two free filters. I explained the situation and asked them to cancel the filter order and the registration of the camera. I received a reply today, which I also forwarded to Adorama: ---------- Dear Mr. Griffee, we cancelled the M8 registration and stopped the filter order as requested. Kind regards M8 Support Ursula Brand-Gerheim ---------- I am now awaiting the Adorama reply regarding the warranty issue and the UPS 'call tag' Adorama is sending me. Adorama's email, copied below, was a bit confusing. I have never used a 'call tag' before and don't understand whether I should give the package to the UPS person they're sending or take it to an UPS center myself after receiving some sort of tracking tag, but I'm sure it'll work out: ---------- We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. We are sending you a call tag via UPS they will pick up your package within the next three (3) days. Make sure to pack the merchandise in its original inner and outer packaging. Enclose a copy of the invoice and a short note stating reason for return. Indicate whether you wish to exchange the product or to receive a refund. Take the package to the nearest UPS store. ---------- Sirvine: I believe my letter to Adorama is diplomatic and to the point. I did lose a lot of time and went through a lot of hassle where none would be needed if they had sent me a new camera without defects as advertised on their site when I bought it. I wished to express this to them and ask them to be more careful in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photoskeptic Posted March 20, 2007 Share #74 Posted March 20, 2007 Wow! Looks like something off HCB's most used body. If it didn't have the coding cutout I wouldn't have believed it was an M8. Disgusting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guy_mancuso Posted March 20, 2007 Share #75 Posted March 20, 2007 Simon they are probably sending you UPS labels all ready filled out to ship to them. There just asking for you to pack it up gve them that info attach the label and either have a UPS truck pick up or just drop at a UPS store. Perfectly normal, your on your way to a refund it looks like. Just keep all documentation in case something happens Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted March 20, 2007 Share #76 Posted March 20, 2007 but I should imagine some people wonder what happens with all the M8s that go back and forth................they just keep it up until the punter gets worn down..................................as a mole hill becomes a mountain ........................ something that the forum specialises in.................if it wasn't so sad it would be funny Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 20, 2007 Share #77 Posted March 20, 2007 Simon-- The "call tag" is issued by and charged to the original shipper as a kind of minimal mea culpa. A UPS guy will arrive at your door and say "Do you have something for me to pick up?" You hand him the package ready to ship (doesn't even need an address label since that's all on his paperwork); he gives you paperwork with tracking number. He leaves and the matter is in Adorama's hands. The only problem that could occur would be that Adorama didn't send the call tag. That isn't going to happen here, but it happened to me years ago with a mail-order house that is now out of business. I waited three weeks for the non-existent call tag and eventually returned the problem merchandise out of my own pocket. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share #78 Posted March 20, 2007 Guy— Understood, I have everything packed and ready. I've made copies of the invoice and of all letters I am sending. Thanks again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgriffee Posted March 22, 2007 Author Share #79 Posted March 22, 2007 Recently, on the Leicadorama Lemon novela: UPS picked up the package and it is now on its way back to Adorama. The UPS man said it would take between six and ten days for it to get to NJ, and then it will be five to ten days before Adorama processes the return. I am now (impatiently) awaiting my refund so I can get a new M8! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted March 22, 2007 Share #80 Posted March 22, 2007 Gee, Simon! You say you're impatiently awaiting a proper M8. Think about all those poor souls whose M8s had to go back to Germany for a fix, all whining about a two-month wait. Or actually, maybe they're starting to get their cameras back, since they're not starting so many new "Dadblame Leica" threads. Glad everything is under way! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.